Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2022

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's great. Thank you. I really appreciate that comment, because I think that will be key as we move forward.

I'll continue with you, Mr. Nussbaum. You were last here in June. We've had some major events, as the deputy chief was pointing out, since then, mostly of a festive nature, thankfully, including Canada Day. We've also had the sombre moment of the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation.

What has been the experience, from the NCC's perspective, of the closure of Wellington thus far from vehicular traffic?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

In terms of the events we witnessed in the capital this past season, I think they went off very well. We had events like the Ottawa Jazz Festival in Confederation Park. We had the Ottawa Bluesfest at LeBreton Flats Park, and, of course, we had the Canada Day celebrations and National Indigenous Peoples Day.

I think the experience was positive. People understood that Wellington Street was closed, so they made their plans with that in mind. We have an interest, shared I'm sure with the City of Ottawa, in increasing use of the Ottawa Light Rail Transit. There's an understanding now, as the city moves to its phase two extension of that project, that more and more we want citizens who are coming to events in the core of Canada's capital to arrive there by other means than private vehicle, whether it's transit, walking or cycling.

The Wellington Street closure was well known, and as a consequence we didn't see the kinds of tie-ups we might otherwise have expected.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'll come to you, Mr. Brookson. Even though it's not part of the parliamentary precinct and thus PPS does not have much jurisdiction over it, has the closure of Wellington Street made it easier for your team to fulfill its mandate around providing safety for parliamentarians and staff?

[Larry Brookson]

I think the current state of Wellington Street, the way it has been set up, is for law-abiding citizens. For anybody who has an intent or is a threat, it's wide open. There are no barriers.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Through you, Madam Chair, can you, Mr. Brookson, expand on the word “barriers”? Are you talking about physical barriers? Are you talking about psychological barriers? What's in your mind when you speak of barriers?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, when we look at Wellington and the physical barriers that were put up to prevent traffic from coming right down the heartland of our democracy, of both the triad and the south precinct buildings, the service is responsible for 30-some buildings, which house some of the most important people we have in this country, steering us in the right direction.

The suggestion that Wellington comes right down the heart of it unabated is a concern to a service that I'm responsible for, so although I can appreciate the reduced traffic since last winter, it's still extremely porous.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I have two minutes. I have two very quick questions for you.

Do you think expanding the parliamentary precinct to include Wellington Street up to Sparks Street would help in undermining the porousness that you speak of and enhancing security for parliamentarians, staff and the community writ large?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, my position has not changed and the answer to that is yes.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

My second question is this. Do you think the next step on top of that, which is to transfer Wellington Street from municipal government to federal government, will also further enhance your ability to do your duty well?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, yes, that's correct.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent.

Ms. Gaudreau, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We really did get a lot of answers to our questions in the earlier meetings, but we see that a plan is taking shape. We have heard a lot about how there are concerns relating to infrastructure, resources and jurisdictions. Ms. Ferguson confirms this.

According to Mr. Bédard, it is possible, under the rules of the House of Commons, for us to perform our role and responsibilities better. Mr. Brookson says he has learned a lot and can make very clear recommendations. In the last testimony, there was a discussion of the six services associated with the command centre and the usefulness of working together. And last, Mr. Nussbaum talked about how important collaborating and coordinating are.

The crucial question is how to go about it. At present, we are talking about expanding the boundaries of the Hill, but more than that is going to be needed. During the five minutes I have, I would like each witness to explain precisely what we are missing for achieving the objective of the security of parliamentarians and Hill employees and having the necessary authority that each of you may have, and the resources.

I know that you have some items that can be added to the report, because this is our last chance at present.

I will start with Mr. Brookson. What are we missing? What do you need?

[Larry Brookson]

I think that if we want to expand the boundaries of the parliamentary precinct, we will have to invest in the Parliamentary Protective Service.

For the service to be successful, we need our partners to also be in a healthy position. If there's one partner on which I rely heavily, it's the Ottawa Police Service. It's a service that's been stretched and moved.

We have to look at this more globally. Again, I don't know where I'd be without the Ottawa Police Service with respect to the way the service I'm responsible for delivers on a daily basis. We need to look at this holistically to make sure all security partners are raised and elevated at the same time.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Bédard, can you add a comment on what is needed for the PPS to perform its role better, that role being different from the role of the police?

[Michel Bédard]

The solution to adopt, to ensure the security of parliamentarians, includes a geographical expansion of the PPS's mandate, so that it takes in part of Wellington Street and potentially other streets. The SPP's mandate is really performed based on the premises to be protected, that is, Parliament Hill and the parliamentary precinct.

At present, Wellington Street is not part of Parliament Hill, under the definition given in the Parliament of Canada Act. As I said in my testimony, the street is the property of the City of Ottawa. The proposal to extend the ground covered by Parliament Hill to take in Wellington Street and other portions of streets, and take the necessary measures for those streets to become the property of the federal government, is certainly a potential solution.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Ms. Ferguson, how are things working since it has been more or less closed and people can cross more freely? I would like to know your opinion on the subject, because weeks have passed since our last conversation.

[Trish Ferguson]

For the Ottawa Police Service, I think what we really crave from this committee is a delineation of jurisdictions and statutes for roles and responsibilities. They need to be clear for all parties and encompass contingencies for times of crisis and emergency.

The Ottawa Police Service would continue to respond to any criminal acts that take place within the parliamentary precinct, which is as it happens right now, and we really want to make sure our members are provided clear lines as to where their role begins and where the parliamentary precinct police role would end.

Any changes to infrastructure that we're seeking would absolutely be necessary to make sure it respects the rights of parliamentarians to freely access any of the parliamentary buildings and the precinct itself. We would like to make sure that whatever key pieces are put in place in terms of infrastructure will allow for freedom of movement but also give us the capability to quickly and efficiently restrict access, particularly for vehicles, in response to a security threat.

That is something that I think has been highlighted already, that we haven't been able to do wholeheartedly on Wellington right now. The member who reported almost being struck by a vehicle.... Those are situations that we are very sad to hear about. We would like to be able to put something in place that is clear and doesn't put our members at risk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, you have six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for all of the testimony we've heard and for spending this hour with us. My first question will be for Mr. Brookson.

Living through this, I kept walking through that convoy every day and thinking, “Why are we here?” I don't understand, and I'm wondering what information the PPS received from the OPS prior to January 29. What input was there?

I'm still confused, when I look back, that all of those trucks were blocking our place of governance for the whole of Canada.

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, obviously the community shares its information among its security partners, so the date of departure, where the convoys started and the numbers that were coming were things the service was aware of, and we commenced our preparation for that, specific to our protective mandate.

The remaining policing operations were left to the policing partners, and the service did not have a role in that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay. I'll leave it at that.

As we're having this discussion, I want to make sure citizens are well aware, because we know there are people living in the area where we're talking about expanding the jurisdiction.

To clarify and put on the record, if it was turned into federal jurisdiction, which would really allow for a lot more security for this place—you've made that very clear, Mr. Brookson, through testimony—would there be any interruption for citizens? If they were in trouble and they had to call 911, would that just continue as is?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, it would continue as is.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Through the chair, Mr. Brookson talked about the accessibility still. We have blockades up. I appreciate that I can get across that street a lot more easily when I'm going to different meetings that I have to attend, but I still see people driving through and I often think that I don't think they should be doing that. Of course, they are doing that.

I will first come to you, and then I will come back to the deputy chief to ask a question about that.

If the jurisdiction was expanded, what kinds of changes would be there to provide more security for that space? How would we monitor it? What capacity would the PPS have to monitor that? If somebody drove on or came onto that space thinking they were going to take a shortcut, what powers would that department have?

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, one piece that we've already commenced is that we have a considerable number of cameras that file into our OSC—our operational support centre.

A piece that I've asked for as of this morning, understanding that Wellington is going to be a bit more used by vehicles, is that I'm working with PSPC to get a list of authorized vehicles, so that when we see a vehicle going down that road, the service knows from the licence plate if it's authorized. For vehicles that are not authorized, we'll be contacting the Ottawa police partner through our OSC to respond and deal with those.