Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2022

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I'll go to the deputy chief on this one. Again, this is something I have noticed. I wouldn't know if a vehicle was authorized or unauthorized. Right now, in this interesting stance that we are in, what are the police doing around monitoring that on Wellington Street?

[Trish Ferguson]

Through you, Madam Chair, as I think Mr. Brookson explained, we are in very close contact with the PPS. We do joint training with them. We have done a number of tabletop exercises that have assisted us in getting some clarity around the response that's required.

As it pertains to vehicles, we know there are vehicles that have travelled up there. Certain vehicles are required for maintenance of property or for city officials who need to be in that area. We know it is not entirely solidified and a safe or secure space at this point in time. We look forward to some clarity around this from this committee, on where they would like to see that happen. We will certainly enforce and abide by whatever is decided.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

Through the chair to the deputy chief, one of the things I heard in the testimony very clearly was that the police are stressed and there's a concern, it seems to me, around human resources and not having the people to do the work, because the police have experienced a lot of challenges.

I'm wondering if you could expand on what that means for us in this place.

[Trish Ferguson]

Through you, Madam Chair, you are correct. We are very much in a place of lacking resources. Our members are stressed and stretched. However, we continue to police the city of Ottawa and the wide expanse of geography that we have. We do that to the best of our resources.

Ideally, we would be able to position officers at both ends and at any of the gaps along Wellington Street, but fundamentally that's not something we're able to sustain in the long term. We look for a solution to this and, as I mentioned before, are happy to support whatever is decided. Given that...and mentioning resources, we are very much looking forward to a decision on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

I will go to Mr. Calkins for five minutes, followed by Mrs. Romanado.

Go ahead, Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

This is not our first chance to have a conversation, Mr. Brookson.

I think there's a reasonable expectation that Canadians have access to their parliamentary precinct. In the spirit of maintaining the openness that's here—the openness that's been here since I've been here, which is 2006—and seeing people come and go off the grounds and be on the front lawn of Centre Block, I can't wait for the day for that to be open again, to get Parliament looking the way it used to look.

Notwithstanding that, I've also seen significant security upgrades here. Basically, there are barricades now. We have two tiers of security even within our own precinct, not to mention the potential third tier that we're talking about, which is the outer boundaries of the parliamentary precinct and even the national capital region. In listening to your answers, I can understand where you're coming from. Your perspective, your mandate, is that you want to be able to secure this area as much as possible. Given those two solitudes, I don't think we can physically just restrict access and vet every single human being who wants to come in and out of the downtown core or even to the parliamentary precinct. I don't know if that's humanly possible. That means we have to rely not solely on physical infrastructure; we also have to rely on intelligence infrastructure.

I'm not sure what you're willing to share here, but based on conversations we've had in other places, I was left with the impression that the Parliamentary Protective Service was not treated as an equal partner in the eyes of the joint services that are providing security and protection and the sharing of intelligence. If we're going to extend your jurisdiction and your mandate, I would be remiss in my duties to protect people if you did not have the same capabilities to...or were not seen as being an equal partner with the Ottawa police and the RCMP, or an equal recipient of information from somebody like CSIS.

Can you tell me, if we were to recommend at this committee that the PPS expand its area of responsibility, that I can make that recommendation confidently, knowing that the PPS is completely capable and completely in the loop in the intelligence infrastructure of downtown Ottawa?

[Larry Brookson]

First and foremost, certainly not within this service is the objective or the goal to put fencing and barbed wire around the parliamentary precinct, but I appreciate the extent of that question.

This service belongs to Parliament. It doesn't belong to the RCMP. It doesn't belong to Ottawa Police Service. In supporting Parliament, this service truly tries its best to work in the shadows. We're not here to impede. We're not here to obstruct. We're here to serve. That's the objective of the service, and that will continue.

With respect to our partners, the service has made leaps and bounds in the past few years in, first of all, being recognized. We know the service that was here before. Everybody just saw that service and didn't recognize or understand what the Parliamentary Protective Service was. That has changed significantly over the last two and half years.

Regarding intelligence, I know only how it's provided. I can't speak to what's being held back. I'm very comfortable with what I am receiving. That's from all security partners. I'm not going to name them all, for obvious reasons, but with all security partners, I'm well comfortable on that. If something's coming our way, my phone will ring or the team's phone will ring.

That comes through, whether it's the Ottawa Police Service, the RCMP, CSIS or our partners over.... We've done a lot of work over the last three years with the multi-jurisdictional response initiative. This is an initiative that was born out of the 2014 incident. We've run tabletop exercises at that level—the commanders, who are my counterparts in all these services, because we can't do it alone—as to what the respective roles and responsibilities would be in a critical incident.

That work continues between the service and the Ottawa Police Service specific to critical incidents that the service would have control of. We all know how long a critical incident lasts for. It is roughly three to five minutes, then it's over. The service, as I've said before, has been built to sustain the first 90 minutes, understanding the length of time that it takes to get other partners to come in and assist.

Again, we've run the tabletop. Deputy Chief Ferguson has spoken about the tabletop exercises that our two services have done because, quite honestly, it's these two services that work hand in hand on a day-to-day basis.

I hope I've answered your question. I'm quite comfortable with the information we're receiving and the partners that we've established at all those levels.

Thank you.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I know he doesn't have time to answer, Madam Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

You don't have any time to ask, either.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

All right.

I just wanted to know if you have the legislative tools you need to do your job. If you could submit that in writing to the committee afterwards, I would appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mrs. Romanado, you have five minutes.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'll be quick, as I'm sharing my time with Mr. Fergus.

Mr. Brookson, we just heard that Wellington Street has the jerseys between Bank and Elgin. We know the traffic lights have been removed on the corners of Metcalfe and O'Connor. We actually have not seen any police presence on Wellington.

I witnessed construction workers almost getting hit while trying to cross at the corner of O'Connor and Wellington yesterday. Walking here this morning to come to committee—my office is in Valour—we witnessed a car literally slalom through the jerseys and race down the street because the driver knew there was no police presence and there were no traffic lights. It's a quick shortcut now. I actually feel less safe crossing street now on Wellington.

Given the fact that Minister Tassi, when she was minister of procurement, said that 50% of parliamentary buildings are going to be south of Wellington within the next eight years, can we get this settled once and for all, so that parliamentarians, people who work on Parliament Hill and visitors don't get hit?

Can you comment, please?

[Larry Brookson]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The City of Ottawa, not the Ottawa Police Service, governs all the traffic and the safety measures that need to go in place. The service has been working with the City of Ottawa, too, as these barriers start to get manoeuvred. They are going to continue to get manoeuvred, particularly with the winter coming and the need for snow removal. It's not that I'm pleased about any of that, but that's just what's going to be happening.

We continue to work with the Ottawa Police Service and, as Deputy Chief Ferguson has indicated, they don't have the resources to put somebody there. This is where the service, which I'm responsible for in delivering this mandate, will reach out to the Ottawa Police Service and come up with something.

Now, if this means the service has to take on a resourcing requirement from the Ottawa Police Service, our partner, then I'm prepared to do that. It's not appropriate for us to be risking any of our parliamentarians crossing Wellington Street.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Romanado.

I have a very quick, lightning round of questions to close off a few things we heard in the testimony.

Mr. Nussbaum, are there any private businesses located on Wellington Street now?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Through you, Madam Chair, I believe any businesses can access.... I know of one retail establishment at the corner of O'Connor and Wellington, but the access is from O'Connor. I don't think there are any other private businesses that are currently located right on Wellington Street.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Through you, Madam Chair, once again to Mr. Nussbaum, are there any plans for the NCC to establish a much greater degree of private businesses on Wellington Street?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Through you, Madam Chair, I think it's part of the reimagining of Wellington Street in the context of, as you've spoken about, a larger precinct, including Sparks Street. We have an interest in ensuring a vibrant and active area for visitors, occupants, workers, parliamentarians and others. We have a real interest in making sure there is activity and animation in that area. Whether it can occur right on Wellington Street or on Sparks Street, those questions are going to need to be sorted out through the kinds of conversations we're having with partners.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Very quickly, this is going to be a large question, but I would really appreciate it if you could be brief.

Are there any national capitals where they have restricted private vehicular access around their parliamentary precincts?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

I can't necessarily speak to parliaments, because not all major capitals have parliaments.

Mr. Miguelez and I were in Washington, D.C. You may well be aware that in front of the White House and now in front of Congress there are various measures, such as physical barriers to the streets. We are actually undertaking an investigation to see what other capitals are doing.

The short answer is yes.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you for your answer and for keeping it brief, since I don't have a lot of time left.

Would restricted private vehicular access, combined with additional intelligence tools such as cameras, people on the street, etc., provide greater security for the parliamentary precinct, in your opinion?

My question is for Mr. Bédard or Mr. Brookson.

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair, I'll take that one.

Yes, it would.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus.

Ms. Gaudreau, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

In life, we have to evaluate what happened in the past in order to correct the future.

Mr. Brookson, I would like to hear your opinion on what was missing in the process, at the beginning, for us to have ended up with an occupation that, we hope, will not happen again, because we do not want any more of them.

[Larry Brookson]

Through you, Madam Chair,

As I have explained before this committee several times, it is to have authority over Wellington Street, and maybe Sparks Street, so we can close them in the event of some threat or other. In my opinion, that is what was missing.

Following the discussions I had with the Ottawa Police Service, I had asked at that time that Wellington Street be closed, but that request was not agreed to, for one reason or another.