Evidence of meeting #48 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was riding.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Let me just finish.

The member should have a chance, perhaps, if she's still interested, to bring this forward in another bill if there's government legislation.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON

It was not a whipped vote, so it was essentially up to you, at the end of the day, as to how you voted.

I find that interesting, because I do think your proposal is important.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

That's excellent. Thank you.

Time is up. We appreciate that exchange, as always.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have six minutes.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I won't take much time.

We're starting a long process. So I want to use this time to get back to what we need to do as a committee, which is to extract as many objections as possible from each member who is testifying here. I think we already have questions that allow us to go into more depth. So I hope we can be respectful and keep the focus on what we're talking about.

I don't have any follow-up questions at this time about the items my colleague mentioned at the outset, but we often wonder how much of an impact including or excluding certain items can have.

So I'll give my colleague a minute or two to clarify a few things so we can better understand.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you. I'll speak very briefly.

I talked about the difference, in my home province of New Brunswick, between Saint John and the Saint John River. It's kind of like the difference between Quebec and Quebec City. Both names mean something different. It's the same thing where I'm from. If we're talking about the river, it's the Saint John River. If we're talking about the city, it's just Saint John.

So I want to reinforce the message. I think in this case, it's about the city, not the river. As I said, even if it were the river, it still wouldn't make sense to many constituents because there are several islands and municipalities outside the area of the two rivers.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you for your intervention, Ms. Gaudreau.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor for six minutes.

11:25 a.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that. I thank the member for coming in and sharing a lot of information about his riding.

I have one question, so it probably won't take us very long. I'm just wondering if you have support from your community's mayors and indigenous leaders with respect to the objection you've brought forward.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you for that question.

Because I'm not proposing any change to the actual boundary—I think the commissioners did a good job working to ensure that New Brunswick's three cities are roughly the same size, in terms of representation, and similarly that the rural ridings are, broadly speaking, equitable—the most I can say to your question, because I've not done broad consultation on the name change, is that I have spoken to individual community leaders and there is broad agreement that New Brunswick Southwest has worked well and people know it, and for that reason there's really no sense in changing it.

As for the question around the Wolastoq and the renaming of the Saint John River, that is a debate that's centred in Fredericton among indigenous groups as well as academics, so it's not one on which I've spoken directly to anyone. However, my sense of the politics is that, because of the questions around renaming of the Saint John River to Wolastoq, this is a contentious issue. I'll put it that way. It's one the commission, I think, would be best to avoid.

If I may take another 30 seconds, I will just say that, as a fiscal conservative as well, I'd be loath to spend the thousands of dollars that would be required on the name change. As do many of you, I have signs on the exterior of my constituency office and signs throughout the riding that bear the name New Brunswick Southwest. I think it would be unfortunate if monies would have to be spent just because we are needlessly making a name change or choosing to go with Saint John—St. Croix, a name that is less representative and one that, if I'm not successful today, I would hopefully continue to try to get to be New Brunswick Southwest. It could be an unfortunate fiscal decision as well.

It's a minor point, I realize. It's not even a drop in the bucket of the federal government's budget, but it's one that I'm cognizant of.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

Thank you.

I have no more questions, Chair.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Excellent.

I will go around again because we have a little bit of time, but I am just looking at the six questions that were shared with colleagues. Just to maintain some structure and order, as I always endeavour to do at this committee, I feel as though question two is the one that Ms. Blaney just asked. As for question number five, with respect to whether your objection represents an argument that has been repeated before the commission or a new one, I believe, based on your answer, that it was shared with the commission during the first period.

The question I would ask, just to make sure we get it on the record, is whether you have talked to your colleagues about these proposed changes, and, if so, whether they agree.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you.

I talked to only the colleagues who signed the form that was required for this committee to appear. Yes, that is a very good question. I have not consulted with my Liberal colleagues in New Brunswick. That was an oversight. I suspect, just given our good nature back home, they would have no objection to this, but I can't speak to that. However, I do think my concern about the Wolastoq would hit home with Jenica Atwin. She speaks passionately about these issues. She could have the same concern I have, but I have not spoken to her about that.

I have spoken to the Conservatives. They do support it, as do members of my community.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Excellent. I thank you for that answer.

We're going to use the time we have with you, which is not much, to go really quickly around once more, starting with Mr. Cooper.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's good to see you, Mr. Williamson.

With respect to Madam Shanahan's bill, I would note that there were other processes available to that member, which she refused to use.

In any event, we're speaking about your riding, Mr. Williamson. Could you remind the committee how long your riding has been called New Brunswick Southwest?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

Thank you.

It's almost continuously since 1997, so that's 25 years. As I mentioned, the New Brunswick commission at one point tried to change that name and did, for an election cycle, change it to St. Croix—Belleisle, pronounced “St. Croy”, which was frequently mispronounced as “St. Croix—Belleisle” here in the House of Commons. It was promptly returned to “New Brunswick Southwest”. I would say that it's been that almost continuously since 1997, for 25 years.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I actually believe—I stand to be corrected—that it was very briefly “Charlotte” at the time of the 1997 election and was then changed to New Brunswick Southwest.

I know you have a map that will soon be distributed to the committee, but again, just to understand the geography of your riding, it really goes from essentially west Saint John all the way to the U.S. border and along the U.S. border. It stretches essentially into communities that are situated near Fredericton and would include counties such as Charlotte, Kings, Queens, York and Sunbury.

Really, from the standpoint of accurately describing where the riding is geographically situated, it is southwest New Brunswick or New Brunswick Southwest. I would also note—and maybe you wish to comment—that York, Sunbury and Charlotte at various times have been included in the names of federal ridings.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

I agree with virtually everything you've said, except that, because of this new proposed name to St. Croix—Saint John, you're making the same oversight that the media makes. This whole area in the east.... Saint John runs to the border, and in fact Saint John would be the centre of the riding. The river kind of runs north from there, so whether you want to choose the city or the river, there's lots of area in the centre. However, in the east as well, it doesn't run from Saint John to the main border. It actually runs from Sussex to the main border.

When the highway was built—I'm being very local now—the Route 1 highway, which was the Atlantic gateway into New England.... That begins in Sussex and runs through what is called, locally, southwest New Brunswick, and the federal riding is New Brunswick Southwest. The current riding name really does speak to the local geography and all the municipalities from Sussex all the way to the main border that are included in southwest New Brunswick or, the federal name of New Brunswick Southwest.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Next we have Mr. Calkins, quickly.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Williamson, if you had to choose a path to make your riding inclusive, I think you're choosing to go back to the former riding name, which I think you've made the argument for. Arguments have been made here about the process, but if you were to make that rural riding inclusive in another way, you would have to basically add onto Saint John—St. Croix a number of other smaller communities, which would make a riding name that would take several minutes for the Speaker to get through.

We already have some ridings like that. I'll highlight, for example, that we don't list the neighbourhoods in Brampton in our federal riding names. We have Brampton Centre, Brampton South, Brampton East, Brampton North and Brampton West. It would only seem logical that we would keep doing things in the rural areas as seemingly intelligently as we do things in the urban areas—don't you think?

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

I do, and I think that is an excellent point, in that we could add more names to it, which would just make it more cumbersome, but I do want to impress again just how names matter. When we meet someone—a constituent, a voter—it's important that we get their names right and that we pronounce them correctly. The danger with St. Croix is that it will be referred to as “St. Croix”, and that is not correct. It is “St. Croy” in my area.

As I said—I'll just finish up—and I'm not joking, when I heard “St. Croix—Belleisle” when I was watching the House of Commons when Greg was a member after the name changed, I thought it was a Quebec riding until I saw Greg stand, which I think is the reason he changed it.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Mr. Williamson.

Next is Madam Romanado.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you so much, MP Williamson, for being here today.

I would like to follow up on the question of community support for maintaining the name.

On page 11 of the report it says that, with respect to the changing of the name, it was you and another concerned citizen who had written in to the commission to say that you were not in agreement with changing the name This report was tabled on June 2, so what kind of outreach have you done, if any, with your community? I'm assuming you've perhaps had a householder, or a ten percenter or something that you've put out in your constituency since June.

Did you reach out to the community and get some support? We didn't receive anything at this committee. Further to your point about keeping the name, we just want to make sure that people in your community are in favour of maintaining the name or are okay with the commission's recommendation.

I'm sorry, but as a Quebecker, I'm going to say Saint John—St. Croix.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB

I understand. In Canada, you can say it in French or in English. Back home, it's in English.

I did not do a ten percenter or a householder survey on this. My discussions have been informal ones with community leaders. I shouldn't say “community leaders”. I think community representatives is a better term. In fishing communities in southwest New Brunswick, they also designate the area “the Sou'west”. As I said, southwestern New Brunswick is one that, outside of politics, encompasses a certain region. That's why I think—and I'm repeating myself—New Brunswick Southwest works. My discussions have been informal and I have found no one who thinks the new riding name is something we should embrace.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC

Okay.

If we agree with the commission and they change the name, are we going to receive a whole bunch of letters afterwards? I just want to make sure that we know that some public outreach has been done.

With that I'm going to turn it over to see if any of my colleagues have a follow-up question.

Thank you.

January 31st, 2023 / 11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Williamson.

I've long admired your French. As a member from Quebec, I like hearing MPs from outside the province who represent French-speaking communities or populations speak the other official language. Bravo!

My question is about the name of your riding. I fully understand your point of view. You'd like it to keep its name. Perhaps the committee should align with your point of view. I suspect you won't be the only person to suggest keeping or changing the name of a riding to reflect what the people in the community prefer.

That said, I'm a somewhat structured thinker. I don't understand your logic. You're saying that if the name of your riding is changed, people are going to think of Quebec. But that's not the case for St. Albert—Edmonton, which is another place in the country where people speak French. It's the same thing for Saint‑Boniface—Saint‑Vital. When people pronounce it in English, no one thinks it's in New Brunswick or Ontario. Anglophones will pronounce the names in English; francophones will pronounce them in French.

I don't understand this reasoning. Can you enlighten me?