Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Jan. 31st, 2023

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

There were a thousand submissions, and Nova Scotia now has well over a million people, I would say. People who did not know this was happening or who were happy—I mean, even Mr. Perkins didn't file an objection here. Presumably he was okay with the redrawn boundary.

I would say to you particularly—and I'm an immigrant—that for newcomers, people who don't speak the language and so on, it's not about the minutes or how long it goes on. It's the fact that they need to know that they should be engaged and that this is happening and all of that. There's so much to do within just the minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Diab. I have respect for you and I certainly wasn't intending to be anything other than.... Again, I respectfully find your argument on the procedural fairness question a little bit wanting, but that's just my opinion.

Mr. Fraser, what you're asking for is essentially the re-establishment of your current riding. If, for example, Antigonish were put back in Central Nova or whatever name the commission has—Pictou or Eastern Shore—what impact would that have on metro Halifax, which is the fastest-growing region, obviously by far, in Nova Scotia?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

It depends on what consequential decision the commission would take on the other side of the riding.

If you added Antigonish back into Central Nova and did not change the proposal near Halifax, it would still be below the average population. If you maintain the existing boundary, rather than extend it to Halifax, it would be below the average to a greater degree. If the commission said they'd put Antigonish back in and extend it all the way to the city, there would still be some challenges.

However, either leaving the boundary as it was on the Halifax side of the riding or extending it as they proposed would still keep them just slightly below the average population across Nova Scotia. I'd have to check the math to be exactly sure, because I don't know the precise population of each community. Either way, though, it would not create challenges from a population point of view, if that's what your question was.

Thank you, Michael.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, I believe I'm coming to you.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

It sounds to me like the notion of consultation is in question here. It sounds like there seems to be an issue with the process. Everyone's taking issue with the process.

Having been someone who specialized in consultation processes, it always occurred to me that the design of those processes is important and that the communication strategy around them is really important. Just because you advertise something on the radio, or host a public hearing of some kind and put a notice up, it doesn't mean that people are necessarily going to be included. I think that's something I'm hearing across all of the comments you're making. That's a remark more than anything.

Mr. Battiste, I want to ask you this, specifically. Were any of the indigenous communities you spoke of today specifically reached out to and invited to participate in the consultation process?

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Not at all. This came as a complete shock to them.

If they were given the opportunity and told specifically, I would ask what accommodations were made for them. I come from a Mi'kmaq community that speaks, largely, the Mi'kmaq language.

For them to come to a commission of people who don't speak their language and to try to find transportation there.... This is assuming that they have a car and that they have access to that transportation, which, normally, indigenous communities don't have. What would be the odds of their going into an area filled with non-Mi'kmaq people, where they would be expected to address electoral boundaries in the English language by themselves and in a process they aren't familiar with? I just don't believe that would have happened.

There's a reason why there's systemic racism embedded within the system. It's because they're not meant to accommodate indigenous peoples. Many provinces have seen that as an obstacle and have been proactive in doing something about it. This commission did not and was not.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Fraser, do you want to add to that?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Sure.

One of the things you have to appreciate about rural Nova Scotia in the last couple of years, as well, is that our daily newspapers have become weeklies. Our radio stations, with the exception of 989 XFM—thanks for the shout-out, Michael—have become syndicated. They don't cover local content the way they used to, even three or four years ago, to get people out to events.

To put it into perspective, I just pulled up on my phone a resolution that the Town of Westville passed in objecting to the commission's proposal. They described the consultation process as “rushed and failed to allow for adequate input from the residents and elected leaders of Westville”. They described the process as “fatally flawed”.

New Glasgow, Trenton, Pictou, Westville, Pictou County, the County of Antigonish, the Town of Antigonish and the District of St. Mary's all, after the fact, have said that this is no good for them. Had they had the opportunity, been made aware and been given space, they all would have said that at the outset.

I question the ability in the short term, with some modest advertising, to hear from the voices. I think you need to deliberately engage people, particularly those who represent thousands of other people. I think it was a missed opportunity, and I think it should be revisited.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Diab, do you also want to add to that? With that long list of organizations you read out, it seems to me that it's pretty hard for any member to suggest that consultation was done.

How could you have that many people who are now upset about the process if the consultation was fair and inclusive?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Again, I read out that list, and that's specifically from the St. Margarets Bay side. Once they were familiar with what was happening, they started reaching out, and they reached out to each other. It wasn't me going to them. They found out, they were very concerned and they were doing that.

In terms of the newcomer and immigrant population, we have a mosque and we have churches. They're not going to come out with this unless they're specifically.... Originally, there was really no reason to go to some of these communities. Because Halifax West's population currently is over 25%, that precipitated decreasing and changing boundaries. What they came up with is that now I'm even less.... The riding of Halifax West as proposed is now even less than average—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Ms. Diab.

I don't want to cut you off, but I wanted to add that it seems to me that it's only when you divide a community of interest or a community of identity, which is one of the key core concepts that is embedded in the legislation as part of the boundary commission's work.... It's centred on those concepts, in addition to some others, but it seems to me that it's only when you really try to divide those natural communities that occur that you get these outcries from communities.

It's no surprise to me that there wasn't an initial outcry and a need for a lot of engagement, and that naturally it would come later if they were proposing something that didn't make sense for the people who are in those places. I think that's what we're hearing from you, if I'm not mistaken.

I think I'm out of time. I guess I can't pose another question, but I appreciate your comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent.

I really do appreciate this time that we've all had together.

I want to get on the record the six questions we shared with you. I think I did get answers to one, but I want to confirm.

Is there a domino effect to the surrounding ridings occurring from the changes you are proposing? Can I get a quick yes or no?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

In my circumstance, it's all well within the population, as the act and the law suggest. It's all below, so....

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

In my instance, there is not on the Cape Breton-Antigonish side. There potentially could be, depending on what decision would be taken towards Halifax.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

No, as long as they were following the same ridings as they currently have. They would have no impact, except in Central Nova.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

There's a second question I wanted to confirm. Have you talked to your colleagues about these proposed changes? If so, do they agree?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

On my side, there are two. One is Mr. Perkins, who is here, and you have heard the evidence on that part.

The second one is the member for Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook. He is completely aware of what I'm doing here today, and there's agreement.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Jaime and I are aligned, and we are talking about the same boundary from Cape Breton on that side. I've spoken with my Nova Scotia colleagues. There could be some nuances, and I think people would need to see what those final decisions are, but from a principled point of view there's not an objection to my maintaining a boundary or moving a little bit along the eastern shore of Nova Scotia.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

All eight Liberal Nova Scotia MPs have signed my objection, as well as 30 others from across the country who saw this as wrong. I have spoken to them, and they are in agreement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Excellent.

I want to thank you for your time. You're welcome to stay, and you're also welcome to go. We'll be wrapping up within the next minute.

Today was the first day of our going through this process. I think it's really important for us to note that this is a process that PROC is tasked with. I just want us to be mindful of the people who are coming to share comments and concerns and that we are representing. We've framed a series of questions to ensure that we stay within the scope of the work that we are doing, which is actually very important work that I know we all take seriously.

The second thing I want to note is that any documents that are provided to this committee will be put together and reported back to the House and sent to the commission—everything. We don't get to choose what we want to send or not send. Any supporting documents that you provide to us, such as the letters of reference that you're referring to, come to the committee. We report them back to the House, and all of them will be reported back to the commission.

This committee is tasked with listening and engaging, asking tough questions for the most part and sharing some comments and concerns. Then we report back to the House, and the House will be reporting that back to the commission. This is part of a process that is part of the act, and it is an entire process that really has a lot of value and importance.

You can look at, historically, 10 years ago or 20 years ago, and what has happened, but this is a really important process and we're just beginning it today. We get to go through the rest of the provinces, which I know we're all so excited about—you can hear it in my voice—so I would just be mindful of remembering where we are getting questions and where we are getting to. I think our personal information is important as well, but we should really take time perhaps to answer some of the questions so that we can get out of these conversations what needs to be brought to the commission's attention, what your ridings need us to hear, what provinces need us to hear and so forth.

I really do want to thank us all for such a good first PROC meeting of 2023, and I look forward to many more. With that, keep well and safe, and keep amazing. Take care.