Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[Lisa Ducharme]

I just wanted to make sure we didn't run out of time.

From the RCMP perspective, the RCMP does face challenges with transitioning security and intelligence information into criminal investigations. I know that there's been a lot of discussion on this with our elected officials and our senior policy-makers, but that issue is one area that the RCMP is continuing to closely collaborate on.

If you're looking for recommendations, that's another area from the RCMP perspective that continuously challenges us in this foreign actor interference space.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That was excellent timing. That was on the dot.

We'll now restart the round. The way rounds work is that all will now have six minutes, and then we will use our time accordingly.

We'll be starting again with Mr. Cooper.

You have up to six minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll direct my questions to whichever official is in the best position to respond.

Is it true that Beijing security agencies might try to compromise Canadian officials who travel to China—yes or no?

[Cherie Henderson]

Yes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay.

Is it true that Beijing's consulate in Toronto uses an extensive network of community groups to conceal the flow of funds between Beijing officials and network members—yes or no?

[Cherie Henderson]

I'm not going to speak specifically to that question just due to the requirement to maintain operational secrecy. What I will say, and what we have said, is that hostile states will use whatever avenues they can to engage in foreign interference activities.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

That would include using embassies and consulates to direct money to proxies.

[Cherie Henderson]

Again, I wouldn't speak specifically in regard to money, but I would say that they will use whatever avenues they can in order to achieve their objectives.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

So that's yes.

Is it true that the staff of politicians who are targeted provide information or relay information to foreign-state bad actors, such as the PRC?

[Cherie Henderson]

Again, I'm not going to comment on any specific operational questions, but I would say, as I noted earlier, that any Canadian citizen, any electoral official, is susceptible or can be approached by a foreign hostile actor in order to engage in foreign interference activities.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Do you have evidence that's happening?

[Cherie Henderson]

I'm not going to speak about any specific investigations, but as I noted, we need to build our defences against any foreign interference activity and make people aware that they are being targeted or could potentially be targeted.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Is it true that a greater Toronto-based network involving candidates, aides, an MPP and unelected public officials...? Did that exist at the time of the 2019 election or at all, yes or no?

[Cherie Henderson]

I'm not going to speak, again, to any specific operational questions, but what I will again reiterate is that we need to maintain strong defences against foreign interference and make sure that we educate all Canadians, including MPs, with regard to the potential threat that they face from foreign-interference actors.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

All right.

Ms. Henderson, you said again—and you said it before—that the best way for politicians to protect themselves is with general awareness. That's fine and well, but that's insufficient. You further said, in answer to an earlier question, that politicians are being targeted and that, when politicians are targeted, that information is conveyed to the government. What you didn't say is that the information is passed on to the politician who is targeted. Why not?

[Cherie Henderson]

What we will do as an organization, if we determine that individuals are under potential threat from foreign-interference activities, is to have discussions with individuals. We will also go out and approach everybody—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

How often does that happen?

[Cherie Henderson]

I don't have any figures at this moment, and I'm not going to speak to operational specifics, but I will say—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Where's the transparency? Where is the sunlight?

[Cherie Henderson]

Part of the sunlight is being able to have this ongoing conversation with regard to foreign interference. Canadians, I think, feel very comfortable, and the more we have this discussion and make awareness—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It's a conversation—

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Now we have a point of order.

We all just eat into all of our own time by just.... I asked very kindly, and I think I've demonstrated my intentions here of trying to be really good for the sake of all of us. Letting one person speak and one person answer is important because this is a study that we all agree is important.

We might not like the questions and we might not like the answers, but it's important that we hear the questions and we hear the answers.

Mr. Turnbull, does that echo your point of order?

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

You read my mind, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Excellent. I'm hoping for a career after politics. It might be just that.

I'm actually going to ask Ms. Henderson to respond, and we're going have a really tough conversation and an important one.

Ms. Henderson.