Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 9th, 2023

[Cherie Henderson]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Again, it goes back to the importance of having the conversation and the importance of raising awareness. There are many Canadians who I would call “unwitting”. They wouldn't even know that they were being approached, and that's why these conversations are fundamentally important.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

If you're an unwitting target, wouldn't it be all the more important to be informed?

[Cherie Henderson]

If they're unwitting, it may not have raised to that point where anybody is aware. The more we can have those conversations about the types of things that individuals can look for, then they can say, “I think there's something happening. I need to talk to somebody.” Then we can have that greater conversation.

It doesn't just come from us. It comes from all Canadians creating that greater awareness to make us much more resilient as a country.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I would just say that I don't see any evidence that's happening. The suggestion is made that it is, but no examples can be cited. We know that there's no evidence that concrete action has been taken. It's well established that interference has been ongoing, but no one has been charged, let alone convicted.

In the face of that, having these general conversations about foreign interference really doesn't seem to address the fundamental issue at hand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you so much.

A lot has changed. It's interesting because sometimes I get a text message. I have Ryan here from my team, and I always take a screenshot of it and ask, “Is this spam, or is this real?” Oftentimes, he'll say, “Don't answer it”—or “Do answer it.” It's interesting how much the world is changing. I'd like to believe that I'm hip and cool. It turns out that's not the case.

Mrs. Romanado, you have up to six minutes.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Henderson, you mentioned that all levels of government were targeted. Under section 19 of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service Act, you don't have the ability to share information with the provinces, territories and municipalities.

Is there currently a way for federal agencies to work with the provinces, territories and municipalities when it comes to their elections?

[Cherie Henderson]

Thank you very much for the question.

There are several ways we are working hard to get the message out. We provide many unclassified briefings. In some cases, individuals within those other provinces or municipalities, or even in some cases industry, can get a clearance sponsored by the Canadian government and that will allow us to have greater conversations.

The other thing I can say that the service does a bit more in the background is that we will engage our threat reduction mandate in order to mitigate any threats. Sometimes that will enable us to engage those partners as well.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Mr. King, I'll ask you the same question.

[Lyall King]

Thank you for the question.

I'll just note as well that the cyber centre does engage regularly with provincial, territorial and some municipal bodies. In fact, we do things like regular threat briefings. To be quite fair, it's around cyber-threats and information we can share. It would be in an unclassified manner. It's an ongoing thing. It's not just during an election. It's to better enable them to understand the threat and build up their own defences, so that we're providing them with what we're seeing in terms of trends.

That's an active thing, and that goes for some of the provincial electoral bodies as well. There's engagement there on a persistent basis. I would have to clarify about the classification of those discussions, but they are ongoing and persistent.

Perhaps, Lisa....

[Lisa Ducharme]

Madam Chair, just to let you know, a number of provinces have their own legislation regarding threats to elections at that level. The RCMP is uniquely placed to work with those police of jurisdiction on both a proactive and reactive basis to educate them on indicators of foreign actor interference and to provide them with support. We are connected with our police of jurisdiction partners at the provincial and municipal levels, exchanging information on such issues.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I just want to focus a little on conversations we've been hearing about the fact that members of Parliament on this committee do not have the same security clearance that would allow you to share some of the information that has been requested.

I understand that the 2019 election report has been sent to NSICOP, and that was studied at that time by the members. I'm not sure if the Conservatives were on that committee at that time or not. I understand that the 2021 election report will be tabled with NSICOP, which has the necessary clearance to dig a little further and ask those questions. Is that accurate?

[Lyall King]

I would have to verify. I imagine it will happen. We welcome, honestly, review by oversight bodies to have a look at what we're doing.

Absolutely, we've had conversations with NSICOP on previous activities, so I imagine that would be forthcoming. I could not verify with you today whether they've received the 2021 report and are looking at that actively, but they do have the clearances. We do disclose the information to them unredacted. We are at their will to answer questions.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Perfect. Further to that, you were talking about reviews.

Ms. Henderson, I think you mentioned that the CSIS Act was created in 1984. I was 10. Look at the colour of my hair. We can imagine some people here probably weren't born.

Talking about cybersecurity, Canada is working to increase our capacity and our capability in cyber. I used to sit on the defence committee and was parliamentary secretary in a previous government, so I'm fully aware of cyber-capabilities and our strive to increase those.

Given the fact that the CSIS Act was created in 1984, and with these new technologies that we're hearing about, further to my colleague's question earlier, what would be the proper mechanism to make sure we update that act so that it captures what you need to do and what our agencies need to be able to do the work they need to do?

[Cherie Henderson]

You will all be aware, of course, that five years ago we did Bill C-59. It had some very important additions to our act, but as I said, it's very old.

Some nations do a regular review just to make sure it's all up to standard and can allow the agencies to engage and do what they need to do into the future as well. The CSIS Act has withstood the time, but it is time for a review and to have a good close look at it.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Is there anything further? I only have about 30 seconds left.

If not, I will cede my time to the next speaker. Thank you.

[Cherie Henderson]

I will say one thing, if I may. Another thing we need to look at within the act is our ability to use big data and crunch big data. We don't have that ability at this point.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a quick question, and I'd like a quick answer.

I think it was Ms. Henderson who said the following: we informed the government of foreign interference activities. I'd like to know more. What did it involve, and when did it happen?

[Cherie Henderson]

Thank you for the question.

The service regularly provides intelligence assessments and intelligence reporting to the government to advise them of threats to national security under our act.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We probably won't know what it entailed.

But could we know when it happened? Was it in 2019, 202, 2021? Can we have a month, a date?

[Cherie Henderson]

Thank you for the question.

The only reason I'm taking time to respond is because we give out information regularly.

We write assessment reports on an ongoing basis, looking at the situation that we're dealing with. I would never say that it was just a certain month or even a certain quarter, but regularly.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

This means that information must have been circulating about possible alerts, which led Global News to make such a release.

I wanted to talk about the registry of foreign agents, since Mr. Martin was here, since Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Burton, whom I'm sure the witnesses are familiar with and who are two experts on China, came to talk to us about what the Five Eyes, including Australia, were inspired by, and how they responded and equipped themselves.

One of the things they both mentioned was that a registry of foreign agents would be necessary to intervene with more vigilance and to act. I'd like to know if this registry, which could be put in place quickly, could help fight foreign Chinese influence.

I'd like to hear Ms. Ducharme's opinion.

[Lisa Ducharme]

Thank you for the question.

Madam Chair, I'm going to answer in English so I can be more specific.

From the RCMP perspective, if I'm understanding the question correctly about a foreign agent registry, the RCMP would find that valuable for Canadians, as it would identify foreign actors undertaking certain activities who are operating in the interest, or not, of the Canadian public. Obviously, this is a topic of much interest right now. We are supporting our elected officials in those discussions, in close collaboration with our security and intelligence partners and Public Safety.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

How urgent do you think it is to get this registry up and running?