Procedure and House Affairs Committee on April 14th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, the floor is yours.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

As always, everything I say goes through the chair.

I want to thank our witness for being here for this important issue.

The way I'll start is how I think I've started almost every question during this study. The fact is that this is very serious, and the most important part for me is that Canadians are losing faith in our systems. What I hope for around this table, and for all the people who are represented at this table, is that our commitment is, number one, to Canadians to make sure they have faith. What has happened around foreign interference in our elections is that we've seen Canadians lose more and more faith, and that's where I am concerned.

My question for Ms. Telford is simply this. We have seen the Liberal MPs in this committee repeatedly point out that the Maher Arar public inquiry was really effective at shedding light on intelligence leaks and providing Canadians with transparency, even when the government at the time was providing misleading information regarding Mr. Arar. Given that even your former colleague Gerald Butts has called for a public inquiry, do you think one is needed?

[Katie Telford]

As I mentioned in the opening statement, for the very reasons you set out in terms of the importance of this issue and the seriousness of what we're talking about, we need to take this out of the partisan arena. It's an extremely complex issue for some of the reasons I laid out and for a number of other reasons I'm sure you've touched on in committee over time. This is why the Prime Minister walked through a number of actions he took and a number of different follow-ups that are ongoing as we speak.

As I just mentioned in a previous answer, there's—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm sorry to interrupt. I certainly don't want to hurt the interpreters, because they are very important to us and provide the ability for us to do our work.

It seems to me that you're not really interested in answering the question. What we're seeing is more and more distrust from the Canadian public. I think a public inquiry would make a difference because then people would see this come out of the partisan sphere. Right now, it's having to stay in the partisan sphere because action is not being taken.

Have you ever advised the Prime Minister against launching a public inquiry, and if so, why?

[Katie Telford]

Let me try again to answer your question. I was certainly trying to.

I think a lot of people looked at what's become known as POEC, the public inquiry that went on last fall in response to the Emergencies Act, and saw that it worked. As another example, you spoke about another inquiry and said, “Why not do this”? There have been many discussions on this front, as you know, at this committee and in many other forums, including in our office and with the Prime Minister.

Where we were able to come down as quickly as we could in our advice to him and in terms of the steps he then took was.... We needed someone—and this is the same thing, interestingly, that the previous government did when they appointed former governor general David Johnston to do a similar task—to figure our what was needed. Where were the gaps, as I was starting to mention to you, between NSIRA and NSICOP? What were they not able to cover? What does the public still need beyond that to ensure that we are instilling the confidence in them they deserve to have in our institutions? That is extraordinarily important to us. It's about ensuring that the right mandates are created, whether it's an inquiry or something else.

As I said in my opening statement, the Prime Minister committed to following through on whatever recommendations come out of the special rapporteur on this. It's not clear what the questions should be. It's not clear what body is best to look at this given the sensitive nature of the information. Yes, POEC looked at some security information. This is almost entirely national security information. Figuring out how to do that is a task that he's going to be reporting back on within a few weeks. I hope you can wait for that so we can take those responsible next steps.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Ms. Telford.

Through the chair, as always, could you just clarify whether you were informed last year about the Chinese government funding at least 11 Liberal and Conservative candidates in the 2019 federal election?

[Katie Telford]

I will repeat again what I've said a couple of times to members from the opposition, which is what the NSIA said when they were previously here at committee. I don't have information beyond being able to say—and I thought this was pretty definitive—that the connection being made between these candidates and the funds was inaccurate.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm sorry to be upsetting you with these questions, but the Prime Minister said, “Let me be clear, I do not have any information, nor have I been briefed on any federal candidates receiving any money from China.” It feels like we got a clear answer and I'm not getting that clear answer from you. I'm just trying to understand this. It doesn't seem to make sense.

I am not one to bring in staff members lightly. I take the role of people who are in charge really seriously. However, every time we turn around it feels like there's another article, there's something else coming out, and this slippery slope of information coming in and out and not being clear is leading people to distrust.

Can you be as clear as the Prime Minister seems to be? Canadians are not having faith in the Prime Minister or in these roles. It worries me, so can you make sense of that?

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, it sounds like the member thinks the Prime Minister was clear on this. I think the Prime Minister was clear on this. I agree with what the Prime Minister said, so I'm not really sure how to add to that. It sounds like if I'm adding to that, I'm actually confusing matters, so I agree with what you're saying or what's being said.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That's my time. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

We will now enter the second round of questions, and we will start with Mr. Cooper, followed by Ms. O'Connell.

We will now go over to Ms. Normandin, who will be followed by Ms. Blaney, Mr. Berthold and Ms. Romanado.

Please go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Telford, for appearing.

Ms. Telford, through you, Madam Chair, Mr. Brock provided the context of the special report date-stamped January 2022. Now that he has provided that context, can you confirm that the Prime Minister received that document and that he read it?

[Katie Telford]

In terms of the specific document you're referencing that was mentioned in reporting and that the previous member was mentioning, I can't speak to whether or not we've been briefed on any specific documents or any specific subjects.

Taking a step back from that and to the second part of the member's question, of course the Prime Minister reads any documents he receives.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Ms. Telford, when was the Prime Minister first briefed about Beijing's election interference in the 2019 election?

[Katie Telford]

The committee has received from the NSIA the list of formal briefings that was put together as best as everybody could. They're formal briefings on subjects to do with election foreign interference—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Ms. Telford, respectfully, through you, Madam Chair, I'm not just asking about formal briefings. I'm asking when the Prime Minister became aware of Beijing's election interference in the 2019 election. Just give the date, please. It's been five months. It's been repeatedly asked. You're the top official in the Prime Minister's Office. Canadians deserve to know when he first learned about it. Could you please answer?

[Katie Telford]

I would take a step back and just say that there has been an ongoing conversation over many months and years as to what the prospects of potential foreign interference were. It's why these different organizations were in place. It's why a report came out of the 2019 campaign, or election.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Yes. Again, Ms. Telford, I want to be clear that Canadians deserve dates, so maybe I'll provide further clarity. The intelligence assessment secretariat of PCO prepared a daily foreign intelligence brief dated February 21, 2020, and that document has been produced to this committee, a heavily redacted version of that document. It speaks of “Subtle but Effective Interference Networks” in the context of Beijing and its interference in the 2019 election. It says, “Investigations into activities linked to the Canadian federal election in 2019, reveal an active foreign interference (FI) network”.

On what date did the Prime Minister receive this document?

[Katie Telford]

I could not tell you on what date he did or didn't receive a document. It's—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Did the Prime Minister receive that document?

[Katie Telford]

I don't have that information in front of me in terms of the specific document you're holding.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You don't have any information about that document. It was a daily foreign intelligence brief, and Ms. Thomas said that it would have been in the Prime Minister's daily reading material. Would she be wrong?

[Katie Telford]

It may have been. I am not suggesting she's wrong; it's that I can't speak to where he was that day.

Briefs come in a whole bunch of different formats. Those kinds of pieces of information are not just floating around. I don't know whether he got a verbal brief that day, whether he got a weekly wrap-up that week or whether this was a daily one that he had on his desk.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

This document has been widely reported. It's one of the very few documents produced to this committee, and it's highly relevant to the question of what the Prime Minister knew, and when he knew, about Beijing's election interference.

Your inability or refusal to answer whether the Prime Minister had, in fact, read this document or been briefed about it is troubling. It doesn't inspire confidence. In fact, it invites suspicion.

Perhaps your unwillingness to confirm that is because, as Global News has reported, that document spoke of “foreign interference networks in the Greater Toronto Area [that] implicate at least 11 candidates in the 2019 election”, Beijing's Toronto consulate was involved and it involved the “clandestine transfer of funds”. In other words, the Prime Minister seemingly knew as early as February 2020 about candidates.

Why has he misled Canadians for the past five months?

[Katie Telford]

There are a couple of things.

First, everything the Prime Minister receives, he spends a lot of time with and most definitely reads. I can confirm that if they are documents that he received, he absolutely read them.

Second, he's briefed on matters of foreign interference and matters of election foreign interference, as per the documents you have received, on a regular and ongoing basis.

Third, on the specifics of what you were referencing, I can't, unfortunately, in this public setting, get into what was or wasn't briefed on at the level of specificity you'd like.