Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 69 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to continue its study on the report of the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Ontario 2022.

We have with us today Vance Badawey, MP for Niagara Centre; Tony Baldinelli, MP for Niagara Falls; and Peter Fragiskatos, MP for London North Centre.

You will each have up to four minutes for an opening statement, after which we will proceed to questions from committee members.

With that, we'll start with you, Mr. Badawey. Welcome to PROC.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's a pleasure to be here. I appreciate the time you're giving all three of us.

I want to take the opportunity to ensure that the mindset we begin with is one of fairness. Niagara South provides a fair electoral map to you today for the riding's voters. Fairness and balance is what we are seeking.

This is the reason for our presentation: It's supporting the ask of the mayor, as well as the mayor's city council and the community, to keep the city of Thorold whole by adding the city hall, the regional headquarters and the Canada Games Park back into the same riding as the city's population.

Currently, the division between the ridings of Niagara Centre and the St. Catharines largely follows Glendale Avenue in the city of St. Catharines. The border has been moved as part of the realignment process undertaken by they electoral boundaries commission, largely to account for the large electoral size of my friend's riding, which is the riding of Niagara Falls. Western Hill and south St. Catharines, including Brock University, currently exist within the boundaries of my riding of Niagara Centre.

The first draft and initial proposal by the commission would have placed the urban area of Thorold within the expanded riding of Niagara West. In this initial proposal, the new boundary between Niagara West and St. Catharines would have followed the municipal boundary between the city of St. Catharines and the neighbouring community of the city of Thorold.

The latest draft proposal was updated to reflect input from the community, with Thorold—which is, by the way, the eighth fastest-growing city in Canada—continuing to belong to the new riding of Niagara South. However, a bump was introduced along the northern municipal boundary, as you can see on your map. The bump removed the Canada Games Park, which is presently on the grounds of Brock University. It also removed the Niagara region headquarters and Thorold's city hall from the Niagara South riding. These are all located within the city of Thorold.

After speaking with the mayor of Thorold, I know his preference on behalf of the community is to maintain the existing northern boundary between the city of St. Catharines and his city of Thorold to ensure that his community is whole and that it is represented with continuity by its member of Parliament. This is consistent, I might add, with all four ridings in Niagara. There is no logical reason to gerrymander the north boundary separating the city of St. Catharines and the city of Thorold. Once again, all ridings in Niagara remain within their municipal boundaries.

In conclusion, we support the mayor and the City of Thorold's request that Thorold be made whole and the ridings' dividing line be placed consistent with all four ridings within the region of Niagara where the municipal boundaries currently exist. In this case, between the city of St. Catharines and the city of Thorold, it is along St. David's Road, which becomes Sir Isaac Brock Way as it travels to the west of the roadway.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Badawey.

Mr. Baldinelli, welcome.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Good morning, colleagues. It's a pleasure to be with all of you today.

I am here for two reasons. First, I object to the name change of the Niagara Falls riding, which is contained within the electoral boundaries commission report for Ontario. The commission proposes changing the riding name from “Niagara Falls” to “Niagara North”. Second, with the support of our local mayors, I'm also here to propose that the riding now be called “Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake”.

Regarding the commission's proposed name change to “Niagara North”, I object for the following reasons.

First, the riding name Niagara North is both inaccurate and confusing. Geographically, the north area of Niagara stretches along the entire length of the shoreline of Lake Ontario. This area transcends many municipal boundaries, including municipalities and adjacent federal ridings such as St. Catharines and Niagara West. All of this area can be considered Niagara North.

Second, it seems to me that the riding name may have been proposed by the commission to conveniently counterbalance the newly renamed riding of Niagara South, which was formerly called “Niagara Centre”. However, it does not accurately reflect the close connections the two communities of Niagara Falls and Niagara-on-the-Lake share. Nor does it relate to, or resonate in any way with, the local population that resides in these communities.

Instead, I'm suggesting, by way of my proposal, that the riding now be called “Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake”, and I do so for the following reasons.

First, there are only two municipalities within the boundaries of this riding. This proposed name is short and descriptive to accurately reflect those two communities.

Second, both municipalities, Niagara Falls and Niagara-on-the-Lake, are popular culinary and wine tourism destinations, and they share a unique historical bond in being the home to the largest number of War of 1812 battlefield sites anywhere in this country. Recognizing both of their names in the riding name honours them in this regard and highlights their significance and place in Canada.

Third, the town of Niagara-on-the-Lake has never been included in a federal riding name for the area. Adding the town's name to the riding name better represents and honours what I am proud to say is the first capital of Upper Canada in a community that has become known as the prettiest town in Canada.

Last, in terms of the order of municipality names, Niagara Falls should be sequenced before Niagara-on-the-Lake because Niagara Falls is larger in terms of population and economy and is Canada’s number one leisure tourism destination.

Importantly, I wish to emphasize that this proposal for the change has the support of both municipal mayors.

I thank you for the time this morning and I'll take any questions that follow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Baldinelli.

Mr. Peter Fragiskatos, the floor is yours. Welcome to PROC.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thought it was going to be civil here, but the prettiest community, as we all know, is London, Ontario. We'll leave that aside. It's fine. You can have the town and I'll have the city.

Thank you very much, colleagues. It's very interesting to address you from this point of view, obviously.

It's my pleasure to be here.

I truly appreciate the work that all of you have done on this specific issue. Since time is limited, let me get straight into it.

While the commission has redistributed ridings in London, Ontario, in a way that ensures population numbers are within the desired range of 116,000 people, in the proposed London Centre it has not, in my opinion, met the requirement of abiding by an equally important principle: that every effort be made to ensure that communities of interest remain intact. The objection submitted here stems from this concern, one shared not only by me but by the city's mayor and various community members.

A few examples illustrate the point.

Neighbourhoods that have enjoyed a connection for several decades will now, should the proposed changes go through, be severed and placed into a different riding. One example is the Stoneybrook area. Residents within this geographic region use the same high schools, the same community centre, the same shopping centre and overlapping fire and ambulance services.

Equally important is the fact that approximately 37,000 Londoners will now live in a rural riding, the proposed Middlesex—London, which will be separated from the rest of London. This means their ability to raise concerns in common cause with fellow urban citizens is significantly diminished, if not done away with altogether.

As stated by Josh Morgan, London's mayor:

...my main concerns are centred around the reconfigured riding of Middlesex—London. Under this scenario, approximately 37,000 Londoners would lose a dedicated federal representative based in London. These constituents have distinct and unique urban concerns which are difficult to reconcile alongside those of predominantly rural areas....

London is indeed a city with a unique identity, concerns and challenges. All communities are. We are not talking, however, about a few hundred urban citizens moving into a rural riding, but 37,000 people. Carving off such a large portion of the city is simply inappropriate, if not irresponsible.

I do not discount for a moment the challenge facing the commission, and I do appreciate their work, yet it appears they have placed undue weight on the population quota and not enough importance on keeping intact established communities of interest, as we see in the most recent proposal for London Centre. In solving problems identified in other riding proposals, the commission has created a new and I think serious one.

The first proposal released by the commission in the summer of 2022 did not break communities of interest in the proposed London Centre. Furthermore, its population quota was within the range they set as acceptable. As such, I think it should serve as the alternative. This certainly would have an effect on neighbouring ridings; I'm not discounting that. I've also raised this objection with each area MP.

I'm happy to discuss these matters further during the allotted time for questions.

Thank you very much, colleagues, for considering the objections that I'm raising on behalf of constituents and on behalf of the city's mayor. It's a true pleasure to be at the committee today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you. It's a true pleasure to have you here.

We will start our six-minute rounds.

Ms. Gladu, the floor is yours.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to start off with a bit of background for you. As the lead for the Ontario Conservatives on this, I attended almost every one of the public hearings, so I've heard a lot of the discussion and feel that the commissioners did really listen to people that showed up.

I'm going to start with Mr. Baldinelli, because he's looking for a name change. The commission was very open to name changes. A couple of them were objected to in the first round. “Penetanguishene” was the rename for Simcoe North, and they reverted and listened to them. Another one that was disputed was that Huron—Bruce became “South Huron Shores”, and that was protested, so they were open to name changes.

Mr. Baldinelli, you want to change this riding name to “Niagara Falls—Niagara-on-the-Lake”, which makes sense to me. I used to live down there, and the only two things that are now in your riding are Niagara Falls and Niagara-on-the-Lake. Would you say that the other councillors and mayors that are associated with this are comfortable with the naming?

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'd like to thank my colleague for the question.

Yes. I have letters of support from both mayors of my communities: the lord mayor in the town of Niagara-on-the-Lake and the mayor in the city of Niagara Falls. I have discussed it with both of them, and as soon as they were aware that I wanted to come forward, they presented letters of support for that.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Badawey, in your riding, I know that the meetings held in St. Catharines were focused around making sure that Brock University remained whole. That was one of the messages.

I know that in your submission, you talked about how the Niagara regional office is in your riding. I think the Niagara regional office services Niagara West, Niagara South—all of them—so it doesn't make as much difference, but I see that Thorold has been a bit split up because of the population. They couldn't put any more people in St. Catharines and they couldn't put too many more in yours.

Did you seek the opinion of the member for St. Catharines, Chris Bittle, for what you're proposing?

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Absolutely. Chris has been part of the process and has made a presentation, which I'm sure you are aware of. He made a presentation and made his thoughts known.

Essentially, it's a very simple ask. When we look at the line as you have it in front of you, again, as I mentioned in my presentation, there is really no logical reason to gerrymander the northern boundary separating the city of St. Catharines and the city of Thorold.

All I'm asking is to have that line continue down as it does in the east and as it does in the west, in the middle there. Simply continue it down straight. Don't make that little bump they've made.

That bump, by the way, takes out the city hall in Thorold. It takes out the regional headquarters, which was deliberately built in the city of Thorold to be in the middle of the region and, as it's in a smaller community, to give some respect to smaller communities throughout all 12 municipalities of Niagara. Of course, there's the Canada Games Park, which is at the tail end of the Brock University property. It also services the city of Thorold, with its two rinks and the rest of the services that are contained within the facility.

Again—

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay. I have just a brief amount of time.

If I look at the street that Thorold city hall is on, the difficulty is that there are a bunch of Brock University residences there. There's the Foundry. I think that's what it's called.

Do you see any way of resolving those two things—trying to keep the Brock community whole and, at the same time, giving Thorold its city hall?

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

It's....

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Yes. Okay.

How many people will be added to your riding? You're already at 132,396.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

With this bump taken out, it will be about 100 students who are part of that building that you referred to. Essentially, when you look at that bump....

You have to see the area from above. If you're looking down at it, it's all Thorold. You have the residences here. You have city hall, you have the regional headquarters and then you have the Canada Games Park. They're all right there, within the city of Thorold, along that roadway.

It's very hard to do this. All we're asking for is to continue that, consistent with the city's boundary. St. Catharines and Thorold—

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Now I'll turn to Mr. Fragiskatos.

I attended the London public hearing. It's unfortunate that Mr. Fragiskatos wasn't there, because Arielle Kayabaga was there, Lindsay Mathyssen was there and Karen Vecchio was there. They were all having their say. Interestingly, Justice Leach, one of the commissioners, is from London.

What they consistently heard at that public hearing was that they hated the first redraw with the rural-urban mixes. There were about three of those. What they asked for was three urban ridings in London. That's what the commission has tried to do.

The reason they picked 37,000 and put them into the other one was that there weren't quite enough people to make four urban ridings, and they wanted to make sure that enough demographic from the urban part was put into Middlesex—London. This was the reasoning behind that.

Did you speak to any of the surrounding MPs about the proposal you have?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Gladu.

First of all, I didn't attend because I had parliamentary obligations. You would understand that. Sometimes we have to be here in Ottawa and it's unavoidable. We can't make certain events. As important as that was, I just couldn't be there.

I know Londoners who held an important point of view were there. It's the point of view that says communities' interest must remain intact. This is a principle, colleagues, as you know, that the Supreme Court has commented on. It is not as if it is a suggestion. This is an obligation.

I come at the issue from that perspective, Ms. Gladu.

Yes, I consulted with regional MPs. Some are ambivalent on the matter. Others disagree with my perspective. That's democracy.

I would ask you, Ms. Gladu, to put yourself into my shoes, representing these thousands of people who are now being put into another riding and community of interest.

I mentioned Stoneybrook. If anyone knows London, they'll know what the brooks are. Stoneybrook would be separated from Donnybrook, Phillbrook, Pennybrook and Bobbybrook. You might ask about the names. I don't know whether it's an urban myth or it's reality, but apparently they take the name of—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

All right. Thank you so much.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

—the contractor who built the area.

I hope that answers your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Fragiskatos, thank you so much.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for being here today. We appreciate your testimony, and we've read your submissions.

Mr. Badawey, I'll go to you first, and then I have some questions for Mr. Fragiskatos.

You mentioned the word “gerrymandering”. That word is sometimes used in these contexts, and you did something with your hand. It seems that they're drawing the boundaries in a way that really doesn't make sense.

I want to give you an opportunity to speak a bit more on why you would call it gerrymandering.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

It's simply because there's no logical reason for it. The boundary line they're proposing is consistent to the east and consistent to the west, and for some reason, right in the middle, they dip down and carve out part of the city of Thorold, which includes the city of Thorold's recreational facility, Canada Games Park, located on the grounds of Brock University, as well as Thorold City Hall and the regional headquarters.

Going back to Ms. Gladu's questions about trying to keep Brock University whole, that was never a concern with respect to our presentations to the commission. It's very consistent with Niagara College, for example. Niagara College belongs to Tony's riding and it belongs to my riding currently. It is still going to be that way, as it's both in Niagara-on-the-Lake—and part of St. Catharines, quite frankly, close to the tip of it—and in the city of Welland.

It's not inconsistent in Niagara to have two post-secondary institutions, the college and university, belonging to two municipalities.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you for that response.

I'll go to Mr. Fragiskatos now.

I read your submission. I think you were supportive of, generally, the initial proposal put forth by the commission with regard to the northern boundary of your riding. If I understand it correctly, because I'm not as familiar, obviously, with your riding as you are, it sounds like the movement of that boundary has sliced out individuals that would normally have considered themselves part of an urban riding. They are now going to be part of the Middlesex—London riding, which is predominantly rural.

It's always hard for us to put ourselves in the shoes of the local MP who really understands the dynamics of the local community. Can you speak to your case a bit more?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Turnbull.

In principle, I have no problem with urban residents living in a rural riding. That does happen, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it. As I said, we're talking about 37,000 people, not 370 people.

I'm happy to table with the committee, Madam Chair, the map of current London North Centre. I've highlighted it.

This is the area of the brooks that I talked about before. This part would be kept in the proposed London Centre, currently under consideration. This part would be lost. As you can see, this is a continuous community of interest. Again, you're not a resident, so I'm not expecting you to know the ins and outs of London neighbourhoods, but it is an established neighbourhood in London, around for close to 40 years. The commission—and I don't discount the challenge in front of them—has decided, unfortunately, to sever this community of interest. That is a very serious issue and I think one that needs to be addressed.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Communities of interest hang together. There are reasons why they associate. Can you give us a bit more detail on why this is an established community of interest that should not be divided?