Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 9th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Order. I call the meeting to order.

The committee is meeting today to continue its study on foreign election interference.

Before we begin, this is a reminder that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list of members wishing to speak.

We have with us today Ms. Cherie Wong, executive director of the Alliance Canada Hong Kong; as well as Ms. Ai-Men Lau, adviser, joining us by video conference.

I understand that you will be bringing opening comments together.

I will start with Ms. Lau, who will automatically pass it to Ms. Wong.

Ms. Lau, welcome to committee.

[Ai-Men Lau, Advisor, Alliance Canada Hong Kong]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Hello. My name is Ai-Men Lau. I am an adviser to Alliance Canada Hong Kong and a research analyst at the Taiwanese civil society organization Doublethink Lab, which researches CCP influence operations and disinformation campaigns.

[Cherie Wong, Executive Director, Alliance Canada Hong Kong]

I serve as executive director of Alliance Canada Hong Kong.

The Chinese party state apparatus is one of the most sophisticated actors in foreign interference activities. Beijing actively interferes in liberal-democratic political systems to shift social environments toward Beijing-friendly policies and narratives. The United Front Work Department's interference operates on interconnected dependencies between politics, economics, culture, technology, academia, governance and community, which most western governments fail to grasp.

Foreign influence is happening at all levels of government and across partisan stripes. Many politicians, public servants, political staff, former officials and diplomats are targeted.

Those who are outside of the diaspora and lack a cultural lens have a hard time identifying foreign interference, especially what is happening through covert and clandestine means. Without adequate education and guidelines, many are wading into situations that leave them vulnerable.

At the community level, Beijing deploys a mix of incentives, intimidation, disinformation and social pressures. The United Front also disguises their activities as initiatives that advance the ethnic Chinese community's interest. Not only does the United Front mobilize ethnic Chinese communities to support candidates that align with Beijing's interests; they also sabotage candidates through social media with inaccurate information.

While financial contributions are regulated, volunteer mobilization, business and community investments, and outreach are contributions that cannot and should not be regulated.

The United Front also falsely presents the ethnic Chinese and diaspora communities as a monolith to actively discredit dissenting voices. Years of astroturfing have made it difficult for the diaspora to mobilize without Beijing's interference. Despite being afraid to voice their concerns publicly, many community members distrust elected officials due to their perceived close relationships with PRC officials and pro-Beijing organizations and their proxies.

[Ai-Men Lau]

We have submitted a report for the committee's consideration. This latest report provides an overview of Beijing's influence in Canadian electoral and democratic processes.

Canada needs a holistic, whole-of-society approach to sustainably counter foreign influence while strengthening Canadian democratic institutions. It is critical that we develop educational materials for campaigns on issues of foreign influence and invest in culturally sensitive, linguistically appropriate civic engagement with vulnerable and potentially targeted communities.

On a broader scale, we need to provide Canadians with the tools and knowledge to participate in civic activities and to identify foreign influence and inaccurate information. Growing community resilience through digital literacy and media literacy can empower Canadians in making informed decisions, whether in front of a ballot or consuming information online.

Transparency and sunlight are crucial. ACHK supports the call for a country-agnostic foreign influence transparency scheme that ensures that foreign principals and their proxies register their activities, including political operatives and those engaged in academia, civil society, business and investments, and media. The transparency scheme must come with investigative and enforcement powers, and non-compliance should be penalized. The registry must also be accompanied by a fair and transparent appeals mechanism.

Though we have yet to see the office's mandate, the government's proposed national counter-interference office should be coordinating information dissemination. We urge the office to support the development of clearance-specific materials on issues of foreign interference to inform the Canadian public, as well as sector-specific advice for Canadian institutions.

Thank you for having us. We are happy to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you both for joining us here at the procedure and House affairs committee.

We'll now enter our first round of questions, starting with Mr. Nater, who will be followed by Monsieur Fergus

as well as Ms. Gaudreau and Ms. Blaney.

Go ahead, Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Through you, Madam Chair, to our witnesses, thank you for joining us here in person and virtually from Taiwan, where I believe it would be very early in the morning right now, so I appreciate you staying up late or getting up early to join us today.

I want to begin with Ms. Wong.

You mentioned a phrase in your opening statement on astroturfing. This is something we've heard from a few different witnesses in our study. Could you explain to the committee what you mean by “astroturfing”?

[Cherie Wong]

Beijing seeks to use the appearance of grassroots organizations to carry out their state or party agenda, so they try to take over existing grassroots organizations or create shell organizations with the intention of appearing to be a grassroots community organization.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

You've called very strongly for a foreign influence transparency registry. How would such a registry help prevent the astroturfing mentality or the means of using astroturfing among the communities here in Canada?

[Cherie Wong]

I believe my colleague, Ai-Men, can speak a bit on it.

[Ai-Men Lau]

Let me be clear in the first part of this.

I will preface this by saying there is really no foolproof way to completely stop foreign interference, but we can try to minimize the impact, and I think having a transparency influence scheme allows for Canadians to understand how these operations work, how they function and how they may potentially impact Canadian society. It would safeguard our democratic institutions.

I think the question should maybe be around how we better inform Canadians that astroturfing is happening and what that looks like, because I think this is poorly understood. Doing that could be a deterrence mechanism, in a sense, as well.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Chair...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Nater, we're going to pause, as you've brought to our attention that people who are watching publicly might not be receiving sound. Let's take a quick pause to correct that, if that's okay with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We're going to return. I understand that the issues have been resolved. I apologize for that, and I hope people online can now hear us clearly.

Just to make sure we're able to get through this in a good constructive way, Mr. Nater, we'll start your six minutes from the top and then continue with Mr. Fergus.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and through you, thank you to our witnesses.

I'll combine my first two questions into one.

You've heard it once; it was about the concept of astroturfing and what that is in the context in which we heard about it before. As well, how might a foreign influence transparency registry be used to counteract some of those efforts?

I'll go first to Ms. Wong here in the room and then Ms. Lau online.

[Cherie Wong]

Astroturfing refers to initiatives that Beijing undertakes to try to appear to be a grassroots ethnic organization. They do this either by using a name or acronym similar to that of an existing organization or by forming a shell organization to appear to be a community grassroots effort.

I'll hand it over to Ai-Men.

[Ai-Men Lau]

The first thing I want to preface to the committee is that in my opinion there's no foolproof way to completely stop foreign interference, but there are ways by which you can try to minimize the impact.

We do believe that a foreign influence transparency scheme would provide Canadians with the very much needed knowledge on how these astroturfing operations function within Canadian society and better inform Canadians about the organizations they may be engaging with and whether or not that engagement is something they want to pursue in the future.

I think, of course, that transparency is a deterrent in itself; however, that might not completely stop astroturfing from continuing to occur.

Again, sunlight and transparency are critical here.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you for that.

I want to follow up on a bit of an individual level with both of you.

You've both been strong voices against the Chinese Communist Party in Beijing. I want to know, from your personal experience, whether you've faced any challenges or intimidation for being such strong voices.

[Cherie Wong]

Maybe I'll start.

When I first founded Alliance Canada Hong Kong three years ago, I spent a week in Vancouver. My hotel room was booked by my colleague under a name that was different name from mine. The day after we launched Alliance Canada Hong Kong, I held a press conference. At 7 a.m. someone called my hotel room, identified me by name, identified my room number and said, “We're coming to get you.”

Now, I'm able to say this calmly here today, but a couple of years ago on that day, that morning, I shook in that hotel room. I did what I was supposed to do. I called the Vancouver police. I called for help and said, “I think someone is threatening me. They know where I am and who I am, and I do not feel safe.”

To this day, I have not met with any representatives from the Vancouver Police Department. They have never sent an officer to meet with me or to talk to me about this. I have a case number, but there was no information provided to me beyond “This is not an emergency, and in fact you should not be contacting us about such an issue”, because in their eyes it was not a threat.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Ms. Lau, do you have anything to add to that?

[Ai-Men Lau]

Certainly I haven't faced the level of harassment that Cherie has faced, but I do know that at the height of my advocacy, I've had friends who have received incredibly strange phone calls with someone just breathing on the other end of the phone. That sent me into a panic. On a personal level, engaging in public-facing advocacy has certainly caused personal relationships to be quite strained. I certainly still worry to this day for my loved ones.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I want to thank both of you for your advocacy. I don't think any of us around this table could imagine what you've faced.

We heard yesterday in the House of Commons how Mr. Chong, a member of Parliament—someone with a platform, someone with a strong voice—has been threatened and intimidated.

Then we have the entire diaspora community here in Canada.

Could you talk perhaps about how the community here in Canada faces ongoing threats, ongoing intimidation from Beijing?

[Cherie Wong]

It is quite unsafe for diaspora and ethnic communities to speak out. I think it is important to acknowledge that those individuals who feel safe enough to speak out in public spaces often can't face the repercussions for their action from state actors, making it an incredibly unsafe environment for dissidents like us to speak up. When we face this type of harassment and our community members know that there is no action and there are no safety protocols for us, they become more afraid of speaking out. It is a very isolating and lonely experience.

I hope we can look to you to provide support to us and understand that there are real concerns and real threats facing diaspora and ethnic communities for them to safely engage in civic duties in this country.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you for that.

Following up, we've known that foreign police stations have been set up in some of the large metropolitan areas in Canada. How does something like that affect those living in Canada?

[Cherie Wong]

It's of course a very scary experience. These alleged police stations make them further afraid and they remain silent because of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Fergus.