Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 9th, 2023

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank Ms. Wong and Ms. Lau for being with us today. I would also like to thank them for their testimony, and especially for answering my colleague's questions about their personal situation.

I'll start with you, Ms. Wong. In your testimony and opening remarks, both of you talked about the various ways to better inform Canadians at large as to how they should recognize—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

I'm sorry, but I'm told that the information is not being properly broadcast on ParlVU. I'm concerned about the witnesses and the people who are on ParlVU right now.

Can we verify that it is just the signal and not the interpretation of what was said?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mrs. Sahota, do you hear me?

Excellent. We just wanted to make sure that you were also hearing me.

Ms. Lau, can you hear the room?

[Ai-Men Lau]

I can hear the room, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Perfect.

We'll just make sure that people online can also hear. Please stay tuned for a couple more seconds.

Thank you.

We will check on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We will now resume the discussion.

Mr. Fergus, you have the floor again for six minutes. I am giving you back your 39 seconds.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking the witnesses who are with us today.

I also want to thank you, Ms. Wong and Ms. Lau, for answering the questions that my colleague asked. I commend your courage. You have come here to share with us not only your expertise, but also unfortunate situations related to the intimidation you have experienced.

Ms. Wong, you talked in your testimony about how to better inform Canadians writ large. I'm wondering if we could talk specifically about the diasporic community of Chinese Canadians and in what types of ways we could better inform them of how to recognize, resist and render transparent any intimidation they might face from authorities in Beijing.

[Cherie Wong]

To begin with, we need to address that there are ongoing criminal activities being undertaken against dissidents and members of diaspora communities here. We need those issues to be resolved in order to trust the legal system to carry out its duties in protecting Canadians who are facing threats, harassment and sometimes physical threats.

On the larger scale, to safeguard the diaspora communities, we need to invest in social infrastructure that allows them to separate themselves from suspicious or foreign principal-linked funding sources.

I'll hand it to my colleague Ai-Men to talk about the specifics of what kinds of resources and tools our community would need.

[Ai-Men Lau]

To begin with, I'd like to stress to the committee that the Chinese Canadian community is not a monolith. It is actually quite a diverse community. We have members who have had established lives in Canada for a very long time and members of the Chinese community who are from other diaspora communities overseas across the world, and many do not have ties back to the PRC.

Investing in diaspora communities might also need us to take more of a holistic look into it. That would be looking into funding language schools and looking at different languages beyond Mandarin, as well as strengthening our Mandarin language exchanges.

Ethnic media is a big one. I think we also need to be looking into Chinese language media in Canada, understand how it operates and how it disseminates information, and assess for potential opportunities for Canada and the Canadian government to support and bolster a much more diverse ethnic media presence.

Additionally, we need to be assessing for gaps in social services, helping newcomers and especially new Chinese Canadians look for vocational opportunities and resettlement and senior services, as well as translation. These are things we think we need to start building into the social infrastructure.

It is holistic. These are areas that are often overlooked. Because foreign interference and influence happen across Canadian society and not just in one particular sector, we can't look at things piece by piece. We have to look at it as a holistic solution.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I think the specific examples you gave—language schools, ethnic media, identifying and assessing gaps in social services—are excellent suggestions. Madam Chair, if our witnesses have more suggestions, I'd ask through you that they provide them to the committee through the clerk in writing. That would be very helpful for us.

Let me get back to how the Government of Canada should be helping to safeguard these communities. In previous testimony we've heard of the importance of making sure that we have a diverse intelligence services community so that they can be better plugged into the reality that different communities in Canada are facing. Would you agree with that assessment? If you did, how would you improve on it?

[Cherie Wong]

I think it is crucial to first rebuild trust. Many in the diaspora don't believe in intelligence or security agencies anymore because when we do report incidents, they fail to inform us of any progress or anything.

The first step is repairing that relationship. Some of it is having some transparency in how they operate, showing some transparency about our cases and about progress in dealing with someone who's harassing us or intimidating us. The diaspora deserves to know what kinds of threats they are encountering.

I also hesitate to look at everything from an intelligence angle as well, because some of this is happening outside of the legal jurisdiction. In the threat against me, for example, they only said, “We're coming to get you.” They never said what that was for, so that kind of falls into the grey zone: Even if I do report it to intelligence or to the RCMP, it may not actually initiate any change because they don't see it as a criminal activity.

I do believe we need to be a bit more creative and look at other solutions as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Wong.

Ms. Gaudreau, the floor is yours.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to commend the witnesses for their courage and audacity.

I'm going to start by asking a simple question.

Right now, Ms. Wong, do you feel threatened?

[Cherie Wong]

Yes, I do.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Did you feel threatened when you came to the House of Commons in person?

[Cherie Wong]

Yes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Have you been called on to appear by video conference on other occasions?

[Cherie Wong]

I have. I have appeared in Canada-China relations and at the IRCC committee as well as the ethics committee, and they've all had tech issues in appearing electronically.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Is what we are experiencing now déjà vu? I'm talking about the technical issues. Has this type of incident happened to you before?

[Cherie Wong]

Yes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Is there any reason to be concerned?

[Cherie Wong]

I believe so.

Within minutes of receiving an email from this committee inviting me to appear, my home Internet just stopped working, specifically for my laptop. I was still able to access the Internet via my phone, my iPad or other devices, but my computer itself would not connect to the home Wi-Fi.

This is not the first incident of it occurring. There is a pattern that when I receive emails from MPs' offices or committees, my home Internet or my devices encounter technological difficulties.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

What should we do going forward?

In your opening remarks, you talked about educating citizens, especially those in the diaspora.

I would like to hear your comments on the education of our specialists in this area. What are your thoughts on that?

[Cherie Wong]

I do think there is a need for that.

A part of it is that there are very specific incidents that trigger these types of cybersecurity issues, and it's often when we do media appearances or public appearances that are seen as unfavourable to Beijing. If we are able to get specialized tech support to help us identify where the vulnerabilities are and help us overcome them so that we can participate fully, not just in committee but in other spaces—in advocacy meetings with MPs or with meetings with government officials—that would be a great help for us.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

From what I understand, there are gaps in expertise in this area.

As an expert and a victim, do you have any other recommendations to help us determine the actions needed to address interference right now?