Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 11th, 2023

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

I have three lines left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I know, but it's already taken five minutes and 11 seconds. I gave Mr. Bourrie four minutes, and it took him four and a half minutes.

I'll let you finish.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Finally, reduce the number of Chinese diplomats in Canada. It is estimated that 70% of the current staff are performing illegal intelligence duties in Canada.

Remember that every week that passes by weakens the Canadian public's trust in our system and our government's ability or determination to do something. Ultimately, our allies are losing trust in us and have doubts about us. Don't underestimate this issue.

Thank you very much for the extra time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. German.

[Dr. Peter German, Barrister and Solicitor, Vancouver Anti-Corruption Institute]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation.

By way of a brief introduction, the Vancouver Anti-Corruption Institute was established in 2021. It's an integral part of the International Centre for Criminal Law Reform at the University of British Columbia. We're a non-profit and do project work internationally. We do research and writing, and host conferences and workshops.

On a personal note, I am a former deputy commissioner of the RCMP and of Corrections Canada. I also authored two reports for the Attorney General of British Columbia, who is now the premier, entitled “Dirty Money” and “Dirty Money—Part 2”.

My intent in the next few minutes is to speak to outcomes, which actually works quite well following up on my friend Michel.

Inevitably, this committee will be recommending legislative changes, which may include the creation of a registry and/or agency to deal with the issues that brought you together. Our experience internationally is that many, if not most, countries of the world have laws in place to deal with all forms of criminality. In this manner, they are compliant with international norms and standards. Unfortunately, few countries enforce legislation with respect to critical issues such as corruption and money laundering.

Money laundering is the back office of transnational organized crime and walks in tandem with it. Money also plays a large role when dealing with election interference. How much, from where and why are critical questions.

Virtually all countries have anti-money laundering laws but few actively enforce them. In Canada, our record has been spotty, although budget 2023 and initiatives in B.C. do offer hope, as does civil forfeiture in the provinces. My point is that saying and doing are two different things. Canada must be a doer. We adhere to the rule of law and must project our belief in integrity and good governance to the world.

Where does that leave you? When creating legislation, a registry or agency, a few issues are vitally important.

First is verification. Information is just noise unless it is verified. The adage of “garbage in, garbage out” captures this issue.

Second is public access. Transparency is key. With it, media and interested parties can provide a form of oversight that is critical in a democracy.

Third is independence. Those mandated to deal with these issues must know that they are protected from attack, demotion, censure or career challenge.

The fourth issue is consequences. There must be consequences if individuals or entities fail to comply.

Fifth is enforcement. Dedicated and funded enforcement entities are essential. The RCMP federally and Elections Canada's investigative and enforcement unit are already in place, but they need strong legislation, secure funding and timely access to prosecution services. For example, despite investigating criminal activity, Elections Canada's investigative unit does not have access to the valuable trove of information housed at FINTRAC.

As a final comment concerning money, the funds used to influence the political system generally enter the political arena through domestic or foreign proxies. We refer to three stages in the money-laundering cycle: placement, layering and integration. The intent is to obfuscate the paper trail. Not surprisingly, money supplied by foreign influencers is more akin to the financing of terrorism, as it is used to commit a crime and is not the product of criminality, as is the case with traditional money laundering. Again, enforcement agencies need the legislative tools, the funding and the specialized resources to follow the money trail.

Members of the committee, yours is a particularly important role at a critical juncture in the life of our country. I thank you for your work, and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. German. I appreciate it.

We have six-minute rounds now. Questions will go through the chair, unless we're pausing in between for the purpose of interpretation. Let's not get personal.

We will start with Mr. Nater.

Mr. Nater, the floor is yours.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, after having learned that a source from CSIS, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, had revealed specific information about foreign interference in the 2019 and 2021 elections, you said that this source deserved a medal. As a former CSIS agent, do you think that information reported in the media is credible?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Thank you for asking.

We aren't certain whether the source is from CSIS or another organization from the extensive family of Canada's security and intelligence services.

In any event, the person who triggered all this information created a historic event. We wouldn't be talking to one another here today without the whistle-blower and everything I've witnessed over the past 30 years. Unfortunately, because I was sworn to secrecy, I couldn't talk about it until now.

The Chinese have made up a lot of ground. But as I was saying, it's not just the Chinese. They were nevertheless very aggressive, very bold, and have succeeded in doing a lot of catching up.

So yes, I believe there's a difference between ethical responsibility and moral responsibility. I believe that the whistle-blower behaved morally, which in my view takes precedence over ethical and contractual considerations.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you very much. I will switch to English now.

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

It was my pleasure.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I want to follow up with you. You spoke just now about very aggressive actions of the People's Republic of China and said in your opening comments that as many as 70% of diplomatic operatives—

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

This is a conservative number.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I'm sorry. Can you say that again?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

This is a conservative number, 70%.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

So it's perhaps even more. I believe, according to an Order Paper response our party received, that there are 178 accredited PRC diplomats in Canada. It may be 177 now, after the events of the last few days.

Given this high number and, frankly, the high number of people acting illegally, what do you make of the fact that it took two years for this one diplomat to be expelled, let alone potentially 70% of all diplomats?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

The comparison is really important. America is our greatest economic partner, and they have about 80 diplomats here in Canada, so there are twice as many Chinese and we have a trade deficit with China.

Where is the mistake coming from? My speculation as an investigator is that unfortunately at Foreign Affairs—or Global Affairs today—we have some people working naively and non-intentionally—or maybe intentionally—on behalf of China. A certain sort of shakeup must be done on that side as well.

Look how much time it took to make a decision on expelling somebody who was so obvious. I'll repeat what I said in my comments: We've known for the last 30 years. We warned prime ministers and cabinets about all those things, and people, for self-serving interests, for partisanship or by negligence, neglected to take action.

I may understand the political ramifications, the economic ramifications and other ramifications that exist, but at the same time, because we acted so weakly, this foreign interference took place and is well rooted in our system as we speak.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

We've now expelled one diplomat. Do you think that will have any intimidation effect? You talk about weak actions in the past. Is there a strong enough effect with one single diplomat, or do you think it has to be a stronger?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

It's a step in the right direction. It's not enough, and that's why I'm suggesting that we cut the number of diplomats in place here in Canada. There's no reason to have so many diplomats from a country that doesn't want to do business with us. We have a trade deficit. We sold a company, Nexen, in Alberta for $15 billion. We're not even capable of buying a corner store in China.

This discrepancy in the relationship doesn't justify having so many diplomats, other than if some people are favouring China for the wrong reasons.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

You mentioned in your opening comments a series of points on how to beef up our legal framework. The first one you talked about was a mandatory process for candidates and staff, with a signed declaration with the threat of criminal proceedings. What sanctions would you propose in terms of the criminal proceedings? How strong of a—

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

I say jail time. We're close to treason here, literally, so I say jail time. Now, the amount of the jail time would be judged by jurisprudence and by our system, but definitely jail time—not a fine and no suspended sentences or anything of that nature.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

In my few seconds left, I'll note that in a CBC interview back in February, you were reacting to the reports in The Globe and Mail at the time. You talked a bit about the case of Kenny Chiu and the fact that the Chinese community in his riding was manipulated by the CCP. I'm done, but at some point could you elaborate on those comments?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

You're not asking for that now. Is that correct?

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I've run out of time, Madam Chair. I respect—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I appreciate that, Mr. Nater.

Go ahead, Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here to testify.

Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, in your opening address, you said that you had been aware of the government's negligence, irrespective of the party in power, for 30 years. You had determined that disloyal people—that's the least we can say of them—were working at Global Affairs Canada.

Furthermore, Mr. Bourrie spoke about a former parliamentary secretary targeted by the Chinese government through a journalist working for a press agency. Do you think that was a serious breach? Did The government of the day take the time to address the problem?