Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 18th, 2023

[Walied Soliman]

One of the members asked why I didn't say anything until, I think, February 2023. The reason was that I accepted what our security establishment told us. I was upset about it. It didn't seem right to me, but, at the end of the day, I'm not a security expert; I'm a lawyer. If you have an M & A problem, I'm happy to help you, but I don't know what the difference is between a WhatsApp campaign run locally and something run by a foreign actor. No, it was quite frustrating that we didn't learn that until much later.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Erin O'Toole publicly stated that he believes the Conservative Party could have lost up to eight or nine ridings due to foreign interference, specifically by Beijing and specifically to help the governing party. Do you share that assessment, and, if so, can you elaborate? I'm assuming you would have had conversations with Mr. O'Toole in this regard.

[Walied Soliman]

I agree there's no question that some number of seats were affected, whether there were eight, nine or 12. I've read other reports that put it as high as 15. The answer is, I don't know.

I also want to be very careful. Our task force talked about many global players; they did not just speak about Beijing. I really think that probably some of the work this committee and others will need to do is dig into those questions.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

As this story has evolved, the government's defence is that it has created this process, and I'll just call it, for lack of a better word, this “cloud of information" with the task forces and everybody who's here. It's a cloud that information goes into, and one of the sources of that information would be reporting of incidents by political parties and any other intelligence sources that our intelligence agencies would have. Several reporters have mused publicly, based on the information and findings they have, that the government knew full well about Beijing's interference and let it slide because it benefited them.

Do you believe that's a possibility?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I just have to pause really quick because the time has run out. If there is a next round, can I take this out of the next round? Do you want an answer or no answer?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

You're the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We're agreed.

We'll give you a quick answer and it'll come out of the next round.

Go ahead.

[Walied Soliman]

The honest answer is that I don't know.

I've seen the same reports you have seen. I do not know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our guests who are here, Madam Michaud and Mr. Soliman.

As a long-time party activist who's occupied some of the roles that you both have held, I'm very sympathetic to where you are. I hope you'll understand that my questions are not in a way to play a partisan game, but to try to elicit what we know, what went wrong and what we can do better going forward.

Madame Michaud, let me start with you, if I may.

You had indicated in your opening statement that you were chief of staff to the Honourable Erin O'Toole. Can you give me the dates, roughly—the month and year—when you were chief of staff to the leader of the opposition?

[Tausha Michaud]

It was August 2020 through February 2022, approximately.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'm assuming you've been following the testimony. On Tuesday night, Mr. Chong testified that he had a number of meetings with CSIS since 2021 related to foreign interference.

By my count, three of those meetings occurred while you were chief of staff to the leader of the opposition. Did Mr. Chong inform you of those meetings with CSIS?

[Tausha Michaud]

He did not.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Here's what troubles me: How is it possible that one of your most senior members of caucus—a fellow who's widely respected, is a leader on many international files, and is especially a lead critic on the China file—didn't give you a heads-up that he had a meeting with CSIS on these issues? One of the meetings was at CSIS's request and the rest at his request.

[Tausha Michaud]

You'd have to ask Mr. Chong.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Soliman, I appreciate the volunteer role that you played.

When Mr. DeLorey testified back in April, he made it sound as if foreign interference was something the party became alert to only after the election. You've said that if you had known what had happened in 2019, it would have coloured differently your approach to being part of the task force.

Did Mr. Chong inform you at any point that he had been in contact with CSIS or that CSIS had been in contact with him, and that there were some concerns about his being targeted or about undue influence by a foreign power?

[Walied Soliman]

Let me just correct something quite important. Information relating to the 2019 election would not have coloured my participation in the task force. It was an honour and privilege to do so.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's fair enough.

[Walied Soliman]

Information in connection with the 2019 election, which has since been made public, without any question would have impacted how we prosecuted that election and, I would expect, how each of the political parties would have prosecuted that election.

In connection with anyone else—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I'm glad you raised that point. I don't mean to cut you off. Really it isn't because it's not interesting, but I have about a minute and 10 seconds and there's an important question I want to get to.

You talked about the standards perhaps being too high before they engage with political parties. You also mentioned in your opening statement and in a reflection that if the standards were too low, you understood why: You don't want to just helter skelter make accusations, because that could have a chilling effect on parties and people's participation.

If you were told to watch out for person X who's fundraising for you, even if that person were totally fine and totally clear, could that have a chilling effect on your engagement with that person or the responsibilities you would give them in a campaign?

[Walied Soliman]

I'll tell you this. Of course there needs to be a balance, and that's why each of the leaders needs to appoint people who are trusted, who are respectful of the process and who will take that information and deal with it in an appropriate manner.

It is why, as a committee, you need to be exploring what that standard should be. This shouldn't be upsetting to any of the members around the table, because I believe that this is something that will impact each of you.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to get more information to understand the chronology of events.

It's true that we talked about the threshold being too high. However, I'd like to hear you talk about why you're so sure. At what point did you think or believe that certain ridings were the target of interference? Was it during the election or when you were taking stock of it?

[Walied Soliman]

Again, let me start off by apologizing for my lack of fluency in French. I will answer in English.

When you're in the fog of an election and you're getting feedback, the instinct is not to turn around and say, “There's foreign interference”. That would have looked very foolish at that moment, particularly given the information and access to information that we had in the task force.

I would say that it really started crystalizing in the days—not weeks, but a week to 10 days after the election. There was some information and some expression of concern as it came in, but in a quiet way and through the channels that we thought were appropriate. Afterwards, again, we didn't run and hold a press conference. We were respectful. We were truly respectful of the process. We put together a package. We sent it to the right people. We engaged with them in dialogue, and I truly feel that those two issues were the outcomes, an ambivalence—