Evidence of meeting #75 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stéphane Perrault  Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Michel Cormier  Executive Director, Leaders' Debates Commission
Tausha Michaud  Senior Vice-President, McMillan Vantage, As an Individual
Walied Soliman  Chair, Norton Rose Fulbright Canada LLP, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Good morning, everyone.

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 75 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The committee is meeting today to study the main estimates 2023-24.

We have with us today, from Elections Canada, Stéphane Perrault, Chief Electoral Officer; and Marc Limoges, chief financial officer. From the Leaders' Debates Commission, we have Michel Cormier, executive director; Jess Milton, director of production and engagement; and Chantal Ouimet, director of communications.

I'm going to pass the floor to—

11 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Madam Chair, just before the witnesses begin....

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Is it a point of order, Mr. Cooper?

11 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I just have a housekeeping matter—very brief.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Housekeeping?

11 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

I just see, I think, an oversight on your part. I see that we have an additional 30 minutes added to deal with committee business. The only item of committee business is with respect the production of documents related to the question of privilege concerning MP Chong. I note, again, that it's in camera. I presume that that's an oversight.

I have a motion that has been put on notice. We dealt with the first component of that motion with respect to a list of witnesses. Now we are going to be addressing the second part of that motion, or some other motion. I just want to clarify that I would expect this to be done in public.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Mr. Cooper, I'm going to continue with this meeting and take into consideration what you're saying. I will have conversations with everyone just to make sure that we have the will of the committee. Your preference is to be in public. It was not an oversight: usually when we discuss committee business, it is in camera. That's what I went from, but I'll get a sense from everyone, and maybe we can resolve that closer to one o'clock. Is that okay?

11 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Yes.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Leniency. Thank you so much.

Welcome to our guests. PROC committee members and everyone watching really do appreciate your being here for estimates.

I will pass the floor to you, Mr. Perrault, and perhaps you can then just pass it straight to Mr. Cormier to maximize your time together. Is that suitable?

11 a.m.

Stéphane Perrault Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

That's perfect.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Excellent.

Welcome to PROC.

11 a.m.

Stéphane Perrault Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity to speak with the committee today about Elections Canada’s 2023–24 main estimates.

I will also briefly update the committee on some of our priorities for this year.

Elections Canada is funded under two distinct authorities: an annual appropriation, which covers the salaries of indeterminate staff, and an ongoing statutory authority for all other expenses. This funding model ensures Elections Canada’s independence by allowing it to access the funds required to plan and deliver elections, which may occur at any time, as we know.

The committee will vote today on the annual appropriation, which amounts to $49.7 million and represents the salaries for some 530 indeterminate positions. It is virtually the same amount as last year, which was $49.3 million.

Planned spending under the statutory authority is reported annually to Parliament for transparency and accountability, but is not subject to a vote. For the 2023–24 fiscal year, $155.1 million has been earmarked. Once again, this is very close to last year's figure. This includes $69 million for the agency’s operating expenses, $45.6 million for election readiness activities to ensure that we maintain a minimum level of capacity in case an election is called, and $30 million for infrastructure modernization and service improvement initiatives.

Also, a number of by-elections will be held this year. Four of them are in fact happening now. I would like to remind the committee that because we cannot predict whether or not there will be by-elections in a given year, expenses related to those events are not included in the main estimates. They can vary, but on average they are around $1.2 million or $1.3 million.

An important aspect of our election readiness activities this year relates to electoral boundaries redistribution. As you know, a representation order with a new map of federal boundaries is expected to be proclaimed early this fall. Elections Canada will then have seven months to prepare for an election using the new boundaries. Any election called after that seven-month period would take place under the new map.

Because of the minority context, Elections Canada is faced with the unprecedented situation of having to pursue its preparations for an election under two different sets of maps and be ready to switch instantly from one to another at the end of the seven-month period. This is no small undertaking. Returning officers will need to be appointed for each of the two maps and make preparations for both. IT systems and databases—some 95 in total are required to produce, for example, voter information cards, to pay poll workers and to publish election night results—will also need to be adjusted to reflect and operate under the different maps.

In the spring of 2024, if no election has been called during the seven-month period after the proclamation of the representation order, we will need at that point to be able to pivot overnight and be ready to hold an election, should one be called, based on the new map. I know that redistribution also creates uncertainty and challenges for political parties and your electoral district associations as they prepare for the next election. Elections Canada will support them as they too realign themselves with the new boundaries, moving money and closing off old district associations.

As we prepare for the next election, we are planning to improve and modernize our services. A key element of modernization is the introduction of electronic lists of electors that will allow voters to be served at any table in their designated polling location. This will reduce wait times and help address the very serious challenges created by a diminishing workforce. We plan to introduce electronic lists in a way that is prudent and gradual, ensuring at all times the security and reliability of the voting process. A software solution is being developed by Elections Canada. Data will be stored on a secure database in Canada and will be accessed through a private secure network. Importantly, voting will continue to be paper-based and the count will be manual.

We plan to deploy the e-list in a by-election this fall, should there be one, and then to use the technology in several polling locations should an election be called in 2024—or, more broadly, if an election takes place on the fixed election date in 2025. Longer term, e-lists could enable most electors to vote anywhere in their electoral district, should Parliament decide to authorize this.

As well, we will continue to focus on removing barriers to electoral participation for indigenous electors, students living away from home and electors with disabilities. Elections Canada right now is working with post-secondary institutions to offer services on campus and improve services to indigenous communities, in particular by increasing voting opportunities at advance polls in remote communities.

I also plan to return to this committee later this year to seek approval for a pilot project to include indigenous languages on the ballot in Nunavut.

Finally, in the longer term, we are pursuing a broader review of our services to indigenous electors. I aim to report on the results of this review to the committee next fiscal year.

I now yield the floor to Mr. Cormier.

11:05 a.m.

Michel Cormier Executive Director, Leaders' Debates Commission

Good morning, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

First, thank you for inviting the Leaders’ Debates Commission to review our 2023-24 main estimates.

The commission, as you know, is now seeking a total of $3.4 million in funding for the current fiscal year. We won’t be spending all that money unless an election is called. The $3.4 million shown in the main estimates represents planned spending should a federal general election be called. It includes an amount that is frozen. It's a kind of reserve fund, if you like, of $2.8 million, which will only become accessible if Parliament is dissolved for an election.

That means that if no election is called, the operating budget for 2023-24 is $596,814. This funding basically covers the salaries and operational costs of the commission.

In accordance with our mandate and former commissioner David Johnston’s commitment to spend the commission’s budget responsibly, cost-effectiveness continues to be a driving principle. The commission’s secretariat works remotely. We have vacated the office space we occupied in Ottawa. We have one full-time employee and three part time, including the commissioner. The advisory board meetings are also held remotely, to reduce travel expenses.

Because we're in a minority government situation, however, the commission needs to be prepared to organize debates as soon as an election is called. Much of that work needs to be done well in advance, including preparations for a request for proposals; the contract that is awarded to produce, promote and distribute the debates; other initiatives, including consultations with political parties and other stakeholders, ongoing talks with security agencies, and the development of policy documents. We also typically hold three to four meetings with our advisory board every year.

We are working to improve the debates ahead of the next election. After the 2021 experience, which drew significant stakeholder criticism, we carefully assessed the lessons learned. We recognized in our report that was published after 2021 that the last debates did not deliver as well as they should have on informing the voters on parties' policies.

The commission is now keenly focused on improving the debates so that they better serve the public interest. We are spending time consulting with debate organizers here in Canada and abroad to identify best practices as they relate to both format and especially moderation. This is all done remotely. The commission is also part of an international community of debate organizers that regularly exchanges information. The knowledge that we are gaining through these consultations will inspire the changes that we are looking for in the next debates. We believe that debates play an essential role in Canada’s democracy, but we also believe that they should be produced and organized in a cost-effective manner.

Thank you. We will now take your questions.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you very much.

We will enter six-minutes round starting with Mr. Nater followed by Mrs. Romanado, Madame Gaudreau and Mrs. Blaney.

Mr. Nater, go ahead.

May 18th, 2023 / 11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair, and through you, thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

I'm going to start with Mr. Perrault. In 2018, Bill C-76 received royal assent. One provision in that was the register of future electors. In your departmental plan, it states a goal of 25% being on that list. Could you tell the committee how many future electors are currently on that list?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

I believe, Madam Chair, that the number is approximately 13%, so we're well short...and we need to do some work on that. We are partnering with provinces to get that data.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Do you expect to hit the 25% goal?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

We'll be happy to report back next year on that.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

I look forward to that.

You mentioned in your opening comments that you hoped to deploy the e-list in a future by-election, so am I to assume that it's not being deployed in the current four by-elections?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

It is not. It is still being worked on. It is being tested, and it will not be deployed until I am satisfied that it is ready and secure to be deployed.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

We know there will be a by-election held in at least one additional riding, likely Durham, as well, but Calgary Heritage must be called by June 30, I believe. Will it be deployed in the Calgary Heritage by-election?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

It will not.

You mentioned in your opening comments that a software solution has been developed by Elections Canada. Can you confirm whether that software solution was developed in house or externally?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada

Stéphane Perrault

It was developed in house based on the security standards.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Are you confident that the expertise existed to appropriately develop that software solution in house?