Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 79 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The committee is meeting today to study the question of privilege related to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills and other members.

I would like to remind all members and witnesses that care must be taken with regard to the earpieces for interpretation. Please be mindful to not place your earpiece near the microphone, as this can result in feedback that may cause an acoustic shock, which could in turn cause injury to the interpreters. Basically, if you're using an earpiece, keep it in. If you're not, leave it to the side. That's probably the best way. Playing with it may not be the best option right now.

I will remind you that all comments will go through the chair. The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list.

We have with us today Ms. Jody Thomas, national security and intelligence adviser.

Ms. Thomas, you have up to five minutes to present.

I really want to thank you and your team for responding to us so quickly with your availability. I'm hoping that others hear this message, because then they will get praise. I will give you praise for responding so quickly and for being here with us this morning.

The floor is yours.

[Jody Thomas, National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office]

Thank you, Madam Chair. It is a pleasure to be here again today.

The committee is studying one of the most serious issues, and I am pleased to be here today to participate in that discussion. This isn't the first time the committee has invited me to appear as part of this study. The issue is evolving, as is the public debate around it.

There have been a number of important changes since my last appearance.

As you know, the independent special rapporteur issued his first report on May 23, which reached a number of conclusions.

First, the independent special rapporteur concluded that foreign governments are undoubtedly attempting to influence candidates and voters in Canada, and that while much has been done already, more remains to be done promptly to strengthen our capacity to detect, deter and counter foreign interference activities in our elections.

Indeed, the government and the intelligence agencies have communicated regularly about the pervasive, growing threat of foreign interference, and while work has been done to mitigate and counter the threat, more work is required to effectively counter the evolving threats of our adversaries.

On April 6, Minister LeBlanc and the Clerk of the Privy Council submitted a report to the Prime Minister that outlined the progress made so far in implementing recommendations of previous reviews on foreign interference and election security and laid out a path for future actions.

This spring, Public Safety Canada launched and completed a public consultation on a foreign influence transparency registry.

Work is also well under way to develop legislative proposals to modernize legislation so that intelligence and law enforcement agencies can better detect the threat, assist Canadians in protecting themselves against it, and hold to account foreign interference actors.

In addition, the security and intelligence threats to elections—SITE—task force has begun enhanced monitoring and assessment of foreign interference threats, as four concurrent by-elections are under way.

The independent special rapporteur also concluded that there are serious shortcomings in the way intelligence is communicated and processed from security agencies through to government. We have already made a number of changes to improve how intelligence is communicated and coordinated in government.

Public Safety Canada has established a national counter-foreign interference coordinator, who will drive the government's proactive response to the threat of foreign interference.

We have also strengthened our governance. I have created a new deputy minister committee—the deputy minister committee on intelligence response—which will examine intelligence, direct appropriate response and develop related advice for the government.

In addition, the Minister of Public Safety recently issued a direction that parliamentarians will be informed of threats to them, whenever possible and within the law, while protecting the integrity of investigations. The direction also calls for the Minister of Public Safety to be informed of all instances of threats to the security of Canada directed at Parliament or parliamentarians in a timely manner.

As you are aware, the work of the independent special rapporteur is being complemented by the work of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, NSICOP, and the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency, NSIRA, which have both undertaken reviews of foreign interference in Canada's democratic processes. The independent special rapporteur has also recommended that the confidential annex to his report be referred to NSICOP and NSIRA for their review.

We are working to support the work of these bodies and the second phase of the independent special rapporteur's mandate unreservedly. We know that further longer-term changes are required to ensure that Canada and Canadians have the tools they need to stop foreign interference. The work of this committee, as well as the continued analysis of the independent special rapporteur and the ongoing reviews of NSICOP and NSIRA, will all contribute to informing these changes.

I thank you very much and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

We will now start the six-minute round with Mr. Cooper, followed by Mrs. Romanado, Madame Gaudreau and then Mrs. Blaney.

Mr. Cooper, you have the floor.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Ms. Thomas, for being here.

Through you, Madam Chair, to Ms. Thomas, we are here because of the July 20, 2021 CSIS memo that indicated that a Beijing diplomat accredited by the Liberal government was targeting a sitting member of Parliament, Michael Chong, by threatening to sanction his family in Hong Kong.

This memo was sent to the Prime Minister's department, the PCO, and for two years, the Prime Minister did nothing. The government did nothing. The Prime Minister repeatedly claims that he first learned about this memo in The Globe and Mail. When did you learn about the memo?

[Jody Thomas]

As I said to Mr. Chong at the time of the CSIS briefing to him, I learned about it in The Globe and Mail. I had not previously seen the report, nor had the Prime Minister.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You learned about it in The Globe and Mail and then, suddenly, after it was reported in The Globe and Mail, two more MPs, Erin O'Toole and Jenny Kwan, were briefed by CSIS that they, too, were targets of the Beijing regime.

When did the Prime Minister first become aware that these MPs, including the former leader of the opposition, had been targeted by Beijing?

[Jody Thomas]

The Prime Minister was not made aware of the targeting against Mr. Chong or Ms. Kwan before recent events and reporting. That has been done by CSIS. CSIS has brought this forward to him in the last two to three weeks.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You said that the Prime Minister wasn't aware in the cases of Mr. Chong or Ms. Kwan. What about Mr. O'Toole?

[Jody Thomas]

Or Mr. O'Toole.... That is my understanding.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

He would have learned about that, you're saying, since May 1.

[Jody Thomas]

Yes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

When did you become aware that Ms. Kwan and Mr. O'Toole had been targeted?

[Jody Thomas]

It was in the last three to four weeks.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It was in the last three to four weeks, and how did you become aware of that?

[Jody Thomas]

It was through a briefing from CSIS.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It seems to me inconceivable that we have at least three sitting members of Parliament who were targeted by Beijing, including by an accredited diplomat, and you didn't know, and the Prime Minister didn't know, and only now, coincidentally, that it has been revealed in The Globe and Mail is action being taken.

How is that possible? How is that conceivable that the national security adviser, who is you, former national security advisers and the Prime Minister were completely in the dark about this? It seems to me, Ms. Thomas, and I'll let you respond, that this is a breakdown of the machinery of government under this Prime Minister's watch.

Would you at least agree with that?

[Jody Thomas]

Mr. Cooper, as I said previously, I wasn't here in 2021. I cannot account for the lack of information flow to the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's Office, and I'm not going to speculate.

I agree that there needs to be a better management of intelligence that comes in to deputy ministers' offices, ministers' offices and the NSIA office in order to brief the Prime Minister and brief ministers.

We have taken steps to ensure that will happen, not only to brief but to provide advice on what should be done with the intelligence, because reading the intelligence is one element to this problem. Giving advice on what to do about it is the second part of the problem, and we have strengthened both of those processes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Ms. Thomas, you've said that the Prime Minister didn't know and that you didn't know. That's not just a matter of what to do about it or how to act on it. You said that he just didn't know, except for the fact that what we do know is that in the case of Mr. Chong, the Minister of Public Safety was emailed about it by CSIS in May 2021, but he didn't have log-in information to his email after 18 months on the job. Then this memo was sent by CSIS, not to anyone but to the PCO and specifically the Prime Minister's national security adviser.

Again, how is it that the Prime Minister didn't know? Why were those MPs kept in the dark, and, in the face of all of that, would you not at least concede that it is a colossal breakdown of the machinery of government under this Prime Minister's watch?

[Jody Thomas]

As I've said, I cannot account for and I will not speculate about what went on in 2021. I know you are seeing my predecessors and I know you're speaking to CSIS. I think there was a breakdown in process—not only a breakdown in process, but I think insufficient process—and so we have rectified those problems.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I would submit that it's more than a breakdown in process. It is a colossal failure on the part of this Prime Minister that we would have three MPs who have been targeted. How many more MPs have been targeted by the Beijing regime?

[Jody Thomas]

CSIS will speak to you about their holdings when they're here.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Are those MPs going to be briefed, or are we going to find out about it in The Globe and Mail and then be briefed?

[Jody Thomas]

I think it's very clear from the direction given by the Prime Minister, and the ministerial directive from Minister Mendicino to CSIS and to the other intelligence agencies in his portfolio, that the expectation is, yes, MPs will be briefed on the totality of the holdings against them, regardless of the depth, the severity and the reliability of those holdings. Members of Parliament who are in the holdings of CSIS will be getting very thorough briefs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Madam Romanado, go ahead.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Through you, I'd like to thank Ms. Thomas for being here and for coming back to PROC.

We've been hearing a bit about the process by which information flows and the amount of intelligence that someone in your position as national security and intelligence adviser would receive. At a macro level, how much intelligence would actually come to your team every day?