Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2023

[Jody Thomas]

Yes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

—and it went nowhere.

[Jody Thomas]

That is correct.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Do you want Canadians to believe that?

[Jody Thomas]

Madam Chair, I don't think the integrity of my statements here and what I said to Mr. Chong are in question. It is absolute fact that the memo was distributed, and it was not briefed to the Prime Minister.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Was it shared with any ministers?

[Jody Thomas]

Not that I am aware of.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Well, you were a deputy minister.

[Jody Thomas]

I was. I was on leave in July 2021 when it was sent to my office. When I got back, I focused on Afghanistan. It was not put in front of me.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Whom did it go to in your office?

[Jody Thomas]

No one, it was—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It went into a black hole.

[Jody Thomas]

That's right.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Is that your answer?

[Jody Thomas]

I was not briefed. I told you there was a flaw in the process. We've corrected that.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

A big flaw.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to take a minute, because I think we do pretty decently, but then there's this giving the question and giving the answer.

I think we invited someone here today who comes with a really serious role, at least for me, so Ms. Thomas, your time and your being here means a lot to me and, I think, to most members.

I would say that, when we ask a question and we say we're going to give them time to answer, then we give them time to answer; we don't provide them the answer.

From the best I know, Mr. Cooper, you are not in the role that Ms. Thomas occupies, and she is here today to provide us the insights we have asked for.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Madam Chair, I respect Ms. Thomas, but she is in a very serious role, and what we're dealing with is a very serious matter. I'm posing serious questions, and I think that's quite appropriate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I think you let her answer; you don't provide her answers for her.

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, the floor is yours.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks, Ms. Thomas, for being here again today. We appreciate your participating in this important, ongoing study.

I have numerous lines of questioning, but before I get into some of them, I want to clarify something. What you've said to date is that there's a new directive from the Prime Minister that's leading to essentially more thorough briefs being given to MPs when they or their families may be under threat. That sounds like there's a change in process there. I'm repeating back to you what you've said, if I have it correctly.

You're now briefing MPs on those threats, whether they're credible or not, whether the information has been verified or not, whether it's a complete picture or not and whether it requires any action on their part or anybody else's part. Is that correct?

[Jody Thomas]

Yes, that is the approach we're trying to take. It requires some trust, because the investigations that are going on with regard to some of this intelligence mean that sources can be compromised, so we are trusting that when the information is shared, it is not then made public by the member of Parliament.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

There's a responsibility that goes along with sharing that level of information and a level of trust that you're pointing to that's important, and I would agree with that. With the disclosure of information comes responsibility, and I think it's a pretty important one when dealing with national security, so I appreciate that.

I also appreciate that members of Parliament would appreciate that information—I know I would if I were in Michael Chong's shoes—and I think you've acknowledged that.

One flip side of this is that if information and threats are not credible, do you worry that there's a risk that members of Parliament would then feel threatened in a situation that has been uncorroborated? Essentially, you are letting them know about a threat that is not real, and that could psychologically and emotionally impact them and the way they do their work.

[Jody Thomas]

It's a really important point. I think the clarification would be about the word “threat”. That a foreign government is speaking about a particular member of Parliament doesn't necessarily mean that there is a threat against them, and I think the criticality here is going to be how CSIS briefs the information.

I think that as we get into a process where we are more transparent, this will become less frightening and less worrisome. There will be some situations, as we have learned with Mr. Chong, for example, when it is more serious, but for the majority of parliamentarians, if there is a brief to them, I hope that, through practice, through transparency and through this being a bit more routine—certainly not an everyday event, but a more routine kind of briefing—if we give it to an MP, we will be able to reduce the amount of anxiety it causes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

We've heard from Mr. Johnston's report...and you've acknowledged fully that the coordination of information and communication is a challenge and there are some shortcomings, and that you're already moving to address those in implementing new processes, which I appreciate.

I also appreciate, based on your other testimony, given the questions from Ms. Romanado, that there are vast amounts of intelligence, that there are numerous agencies involved, that there is a funnel of information that's quite large, and that not all of it is always shared with you—CSIS has a lot of it that it may sit on for a while.

I'm wondering how you see your office's relationship with the Prime Minister's Office and how information is ideally supposed to flow to the Prime Minister's Office.

[Jody Thomas]

I think it's an important element of this process. The Prime Minister can receive intelligence through the reading package of the issues that he is tracking. That would go to the Prime Minister's Office. It is shared with him. As Katie Telford said, intelligence is not held back from him. If there is something in particular that I feel he needs to see, that a fellow deputy minister or agency head feels he needs to see or that the Clerk of the Privy Council determines that he should see, then we ensure it is put in front of him via his office.