Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Go ahead, Dr. Dance.

[Anne Dance]

Thank you. I might defer to my colleagues here, in that when this advisory opinion came out, it certainly took effort to clarify it for the parliamentary internship program.

Yes, because it's operated by the CPSA, I have an email here from the commissioner's office confirming that it could continue to operate, but I'm afraid that it was the 50th anniversary year of the program, which I was so consumed with that I perhaps didn't pay as much attention as I could have.

I will defer to my colleagues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I have Dr. Thomas.

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

One challenge with the existing system is that there is no registry of how many internship programs are in operation. As part of that 50th anniversary program that Dr. Dance mentioned, I did research and tried to prepare a history of how the programs have operated and how they spread.

At that time, I identified around 15 internship programs that were in operation. They could be divided into categories. Some were purely academic; some were run by advocacy organizations and some, like the parliamentary internship program or the Jaimie Anderson internship program, were operated by a specific external organization.

The number of internship opportunities has declined, so the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs program was shut down. There previously was a Canada-Poland youth internship program that ended. There was also the National Council on Canada-Arab Relations program that ended. Also, there was the parliamentary internship and mentoring program that was run by the Korean Canadian Scholarship Foundation, which has ended. Part of the trouble, though, is that I cannot attest that this was specifically due to this ruling. They were in operation and, so far as I know, are no longer continuing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I have Mr. Fogel.

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

Madam Chair, I would add only that we suspended our program immediately upon receiving the ruling, as did other groups, such as the Ukrainian Canadian Congress and, as I think they call themselves, the Canada Tibet Committee. There were a number—as Dr. Thomas suggested—that pulled back, seeking clarification. Then there was an election, and then COVID hit, so addressing this in a sustained way became a challenge.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Mr. Fogel, could you elaborate as to why this program was important for your youth? From the list I have so far, it seems to be a lot of different groups that represent ethnic minorities, other parts of the world or Canadian diasporas.

Why is a program like this important to your organization? Perhaps you could elaborate on behalf of others as well. They're not what you would typically think of in terms of the Boys and Girls Club or organizations that are there to promote opportunities for young people, but I understand—and I've had interns from some of these organizations—that you may have similar motives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Through the chair, Mr. Fogel.

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

In response, through the chair, let me just make a couple of observations. I think communities like ours, and there are many in Canada, feel an imperative to make a contribution to the country, to encourage and foster a sense of not just belonging but of meaningful contribution to the upbuilding of Canada through public service. It is not the most obvious path that people from marginalized or ethnic communities might choose. They don't necessarily have easy or equal access to some of the programs that would encourage that kind of engagement.

We feel that it reflects a core Jewish value to give back to community, not in a parochial sense but in a much broader, general sense. For us, the value of the program is not what we accrue directly by way of benefit to us. Rather, it's fostering a certain sense of commitment to Canada and to contributing to the public process.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you.

I have one more quick thing. Dr. Dance, you mentioned that this advisory may be making interns more vulnerable in the workplace. Can you elaborate on that?

[Anne Dance]

Madam Chair, I appreciate that question.

Very briefly, in theory everybody working on the Hill is covered by certain policies and procedures. In my experience, as the previous director and as an intern, volunteers tend to have fewer supports and less training. This isn't the case consistently, but often, if you're not paid, there is a certain lack of support. That's troubling.

Certainly, the Hill can be a challenging place for young people to work. The goal should be to ensure that as many people with as many supports as possible are on the Hill versus people without those supports.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Dr. Dance.

Mr. Therrien, you have six minutes.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will begin by greeting the witnesses and thanking them for their presence.

A question comes to mind concerning the witnesses we heard from last week, Ariane Mignolet and David Wake. Ms. Mignolet is the ethics and deontology commissioner at the National Assembly of Quebec and Mr. Wake is the integrity commissioner of Ontario.

They both appeared to be saying that externally funded internships are not problematic. So we may wonder why it would be okay for the provinces and for Quebec, but not for Canada. I would ask the three witnesses to enlighten us on that, as we are apparently never too old to learn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We will begin with Mr. Fogel.

[Shimon Koffler Fogel]

Look, I'll invoke a comment of the late Herb Gray and say that I don't accept the premise of the question—not of the member who posed, through the chair, the question today, but the idea that at least the kind of internship we provide, which, we argue, fits into the category of a volunteer, as it's an unpaid internship, constitutes any kind of benefit or gift.

In fact, oftentimes what we hear back from the public office holder is that is it more work for them than the benefit they gain from it. Because it is completely disassociated from our own activities, we only facilitate the program. We make no demands of the intern. There are no expectations before, during or after. The benefit to the public office holder is at best minimal, and more often than not, not at all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Mr. Fogel.

Mr. Thomas, we are listening.

[Dr. Paul Thomas]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My apologies for replying in English. I'm using the translation feeds because I want to make sure I'm getting the nuance.

I would echo Mr. Koffler Fogel's remarks. The idea that interns are gifts misses the fact that the person being gifted, if I use that word, is a person who is gaining from this experience. There is a goal to it; it is not simply to sway the opinion of a member. There is also public value in having more people learn about how politics works. Again, I would echo Mr. Koffler Fogel's remarks that there is the workload on the member to conduct this activity.

What I would stress is that there is a consideration of lobbying that is not consistent with the way things have evolved. Recent changes in charity law have enabled more and more organizations to take part in government relations activities. Engaging in public policy enables them to speak out and to advance their goals through that mechanism. The Boys and Girls Club, which I believe Ms. Sahota mentioned, would not be allowed at present to offer an internship program, given that they are also registered to lobby. It's the same with the Assembly of First Nations and so on. I can have only 10 interns per year. That's all I have funding for. It's a very large and diverse country, so I hope we can find more opportunities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Dr. Thomas.

Go ahead, Ms. Dance.

[Anne Dance]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the member for his question.

When I saw the commissioner's advisory opinion, I asked my colleagues in charge of programs in other provinces—be it at the National Assembly of Quebec or in Ontario—whether their legislative assembly had a similar rule. They told me it did not. I thought that was a bit strange because the parliamentary internship programme is very similar to its counterpart at the national assembly. Scholarship recipients work on research projects, travel and study other legislative assemblies.

The biggest portion of interns' work is done in members' offices, but they also work on their research projects. I tried to find out what percentage of their work is done in members' offices, for information. Of course, it is not 100%. So this rule is frankly somewhat difficult to understand. There is no similar rule in other provinces, and it does not apply to interns at provincial legislative assemblies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

You have 40 seconds left, Mr. Therrien.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

I will put a very quick question to Ms. Dance.

Unfortunately, they were unable to read their document systematically.

Ms. Dance, if there was a single thing to improve, a take-away message for us, what would it be?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Dance, go ahead.

[Anne Dance]

First, interns are not gifts. It is not okay to view them as such.

Second, members, people who are considering this, must think of program and Hill accessibility for young people.

Thank you.

[Alain Therrien, Bloc, La Prairie, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Blaney, you have six minutes.