Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2023

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, again, I'm trying to keep the two parts of my brain functioning—the open part and the classified part. We speak about that issue on page 26:

Han Dong Advised the PRC Consulate to Extend the Detention of the “Two Michaels” (Global News, March 22, 2023)

There has been considerable media attention about an alleged transcript of this conversation. I have reviewed the same intelligence report that was provided to the Prime Minister relating to this allegation, which I am advised is the only intelligence that speaks to this issue. I can report the following.

The allegation is false. Mr. Dong discussed the “two Michaels” with a PRC official, but did not suggest to the official that the PRC extend their detention. The allegation that he did make that suggestion has had a very adverse effect on Mr. Dong. He continued to maintain close relationships with PRC consular officials at least through the 2021 Election.

Ministers and the Prime Minister went out of their way to defend Mr. Dong, whom they believe has been badly harmed by the reporting. They did not believe the media reports when they came out—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm just going to pause.

Ms. Kwan is visiting committee today and we are excited to have her. I think if we can just keep a glimpse on each other, then you can see...because I think it's just an exchange that she's trying to get to. Quoting from the report is appreciated, but she has noted that she has read the report, so she is looking for the answer as to however you feel best....

Ms. Kwan, the floor is yours.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I've read the report several times over, so I don't really need Mr. Johnston to quote the report back to me. What I really need is for him to answer the question, which he didn't.

My next question, then, is this: Did he ask if the Prime Minister knew what those irregularities were?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, can we be a little more specific about the irregularities?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

The irregularities, Mr. Johnston, are what you cited in the report. You say, “Irregularities were observed with Mr. Dong’s nomination in 2019, and there is well-grounded suspicion that the irregularities were tied to the PRC Consulate in Toronto”.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

The irregularities had to do with nomination meetings and the busing in of people and students and so on, and some questions about whether Mr. Dong had been substituted for another candidate in the nominated process. I think they were that kind.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

My question was, Mr. Johnston, whether you asked the Prime Minister if he knew what the irregularities were.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

We did ask the Prime Minister about the nomination of Mr. Dong and the allegations that a previous member had been pushed out. He indicated that he was aware of that and that there were reasons that the previous member stepped out and Mr. Dong received the nomination.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm sorry, but my question was whether the Prime Minister knew what those irregularities were.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

I believe the Prime Minister was aware that there was some question about the actual nomination and the busing in of people, etc.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Okay.

In the report, Mr. Johnston, you concluded that it was reasonable for the Prime Minister to take no action, even though in your own report you cited that there were irregularities and that there was well-founded suspicion.

From my perspective, I don't know how you can square that circle and how you can come to that conclusion when there was well-founded suspicion, and yet no action was taken. The common refrain from the report seems to be that no recommendations were made, so none were taken and none were ignored. Somehow, the notion is to say “I see no evil, I know no evil, so therefore there is no evil”, but in reality, there is much more and it's much deeper than what is going on.

My question, then, is this: Can Mr. Johnston explain if CSIS looked into nomination processes?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, with respect to the nomination processes, that is a very difficult area, because they're governed by the rules of the party. It's been a very difficult area to regulate, to oversee, and I think one looks to the parties to develop appropriate rules.

I think CSIS has been conscious of the fact that nomination events have followed procedures that would not be the most attractive, but to date, I don't think CSIS has cast its attention into that area in great depth.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I think that explains why CSIS makes no recommendation to the Prime Minister on this, because they don't look into it in great depth, but it doesn't mean to say there are no issues. Even in your own report, Mr. Johnston, you noted that there were irregularities and well-founded suspicion. How could it be that you would come to the conclusion for the Prime Minister to take no action, that it is actually okay? I really have deep troubles with that.

I'd like to ask Mr. Johnston this question: Can you advise the committee on what your concept is of the appearance of conflict of interest? What does that mean to you?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

The appearance of a conflict of interest would be a reasonable person in possession of all the true facts concluding that a person would not be able to provide unbiased judgment on a particular matter. The key issues would be, one, a reasonable person, and two, all the true facts being in front of that person.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Did you check to see if Ms. Block has donated to the Liberal Party or attended a Liberal Party fundraiser event with the Prime Minister before you asked her to join your team on this important work?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I've worked with Ms. Block on an earlier occasion and have complete confidence in her and her colleagues to make any appropriate judgments on conflicts of interest. With respect to her contributions to the Liberal Party, she has made contributions to other parties, and she has served the country with great eminence.

No, I don't believe Ms. Block is a conflict of interest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We will now enter into our usual rounds. There are five minutes to Mr. Cooper, followed by Ms. Sahota.

Mr. Cooper, go ahead.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Johnston, I draw your attention to page 27 of your report, where you write that “CSIS sent an issues management note” to then public safety minister Bill Blair and his chief of staff in May 2021, which warned that MP Michael Chong was being targeted by Beijing,.

Last Thursday at this committee, Minister Blair said something quite different from what you wrote in your report. He said that CSIS did not make him aware of that information. How can one reconcile, on the one hand, what you said in your report versus what Minister Blair testified before this committee last Thursday?

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Could you give me the paragraph reference on that page? Did you say page 25 or page 27?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I hope this is not taking my time, Chair.

It's page 27.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Okay. It says, “CSIS sent an issues management note”. Is that the question?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Yes.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

It says, “CSIS conducted the briefing, but we understand from Mr. Chong's statements to the media and PROC that it did not include the detail with respect to his family.”

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I'm sure you're quite familiar with that. I hope you're familiar with that section of your report. It's a whole section.

[The Right Hon. David Johnston]

Madam Chair, I'm attempting to get the context so that I can provide an appropriate answer.

It's clear to us that there was a breakdown in communication in warnings going from CSIS to Mr. Blair, for reasons that I think have to be repaired, including who would receive information and with what kind of equipment, etc. I think that's been clearly indicated.

I think in this case, the Prime Minister has taken action—