Evidence of meeting #80 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was johnston.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Ruby Sahota Liberal Brampton North, ON
Thank you.
We've discussed this a bit in some previous questioning, but I want to be clear on the allegation that Han Dong advised the PRC consulate to extend the detention of the two Michaels. Global News was very confident in its reporting on this. You found that to be false. Can you expand as to why you found that to be false?
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
The reference, I think, that Global News had was to an early draft of an understanding of what transpired in a conversation between a member of the PRC consulate and Mr. Dong. That was subsequently superseded by another interview, which indicated that the suggestion in the first one that he had suggested the two Michaels be further detained was simply a wrong interpretation. It was just a misinterpretation.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger
Thank you.
We should make sure that the mikes are off so that the floor sound doesn't go back to colleagues.
Thank you, Ms. Sahota.
Mr. Therrien, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Johnston, you said you met with witnesses who had relevant information that you could use to draft the report that you tabled two weeks ago. I have a few questions about that.
First, did you meet with Stéphane Perrault, the Chief Electoral Officer?
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
Madam Chair, we did not meet with the director, Mr. Perrault, because there were no complaints before him or the commissioner of Canada elections with respect to interference. We anticipate that we would be meeting with him and his colleagues as we look at improving our systems, including any suggestions that can be made to help the commissioner of Canada elections work more effectively.
Bloc
Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC
Unless I'm mistaken, the Chinese interference was in a way an attack on Canada's electoral system and perhaps that of Quebec.
You didn't think it was appropriate to meet with the current Chief Electoral Officer. It seems to me you should have met with Mr. Perrault at the outset because he's central to everything that happens within Canada's electoral process. I'm astonished to hear you didn't meet with him, even though I understand your answer.
Did you meet with the commissioner of elections, Caroline Simard?
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
Madam Chair, with respect to both the commissioner of Canada elections, Ms. Simard, and the Chief Electoral Officer, there were no complaints registered with the commissioner or the Chief Electoral Officer for us to follow up on with the 2019 and 2021 elections. For that reason, we did not meet with them, but we expect we will in our subsequent work.
Bloc
Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC
No complaints had been filed, but 11 candidates were apparently victims of some sort of interference during the election. You confirmed that in your report. They were election candidates. As no complaints were filed concerning those two organizations, you thought you didn't have to meet with the commissioner of elections or the Chief Electoral Officer.
Is that correct?
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
Madam Chair, we expect that we will meet with those two officials in subsequent review. What I was saying is that our understanding was that there were no complaints directed to them that required action with regard to the 2019 and 2021 elections.
Bloc
Alain Therrien Bloc La Prairie, QC
Madam Chair, I'm truly stunned by what I'm hearing. I'll conclude my remarks with that.
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to thank Mr. Johnston for being here today.
I want to follow up on the question that Ms. Kwan asked you about the vetting of Sheila Block. It was unclear to me whether it was an honour system where you expected her to step forward with concerns about her donation history, or whether you were aware of all those donations and, to your mind, that didn't represent any problem, given the important work you were assigning to her.
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
Madam Chair, with respect to Ms. Block, I reached out to her because she's an eminent counsel and highly qualified. I'd worked with her in another difficult situation—
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
That's not the question, with respect, Mr. Johnston. It's whether you were aware of her donation history or not.
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
The answer is that I wasn't aware of her donation history, and it wouldn't have occurred to me to inquire into that, because her reputation and integrity are impeccable and continue to be so, in my view.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Mr. Johnston, we've heard a lot today. Conservatives have been citing and quoting Liberals praising your decades of public service. Liberals have been quoting Conservatives praising your public service. There's no doubt that you have a long history of public service.
We've spoken to this in the House as well, that a motion was adopted by a majority of parliamentarians in a minority parliament. Parliamentarians read your report and considered that before they cast their vote.
As you mentioned at the outset, you have a deep respect for Parliament, so I find it perplexing. How could you have a deep respect for Parliament and, when there is a clear parliamentary vote, ignore that clear parliamentary vote asking you to step aside so that we could have a public inquiry, which, of course, most Canadians want to see as well?
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
Madam Chair, I do have deep respect for Parliament, and I hope I've given good evidence of that through my life, and through my time as Governor General.
The reason I'm continuing in this position, with respect to the motion of Parliament, is that I believe the vote was based on allegations that were false. It would be wrong for me to simply step aside and say, “We'll let those allegations stand. That's fact; that's the truth, so be it.” That would not be the right thing to do.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Mr. Johnston, with respect, you can't determine how parliamentarians vote, or why they vote that way. As you mentioned, you have a deep respect for Parliament. You do need to heed a parliamentary vote. As a parliamentarian who cast that vote, I was well aware of your long history of public service but simply profoundly disagreed with your conclusions.
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
Madam Chair, I was asked by the government of the day to undertake an important task, to review foreign interference in our elections. I undertook that task and intend to continue it until my services are simply no longer useful or required.
That's the reason why, with great respect to Parliament, I have—
Liberal
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you for being here, Mr. Johnston. We appreciate your participating in this important democratic process to hold the Liberal government accountable, as is our duty as His Majesty's official opposition, so thank you again for being here today.
I want to ask you a brief question about your report. I'm sure you're aware that there have been multiple Beijing police stations operating at various locations across Canada for the purpose of intimidating Chinese Canadians and students from China studying here, to silence their democratic right to debate and to freely criticize foreign governments.
I was disappointed, however, to see that this was not included in your report. Can you explain why?
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
Madam Chair, the activities of the police stations are nefarious and widespread here in Canada and in other jurisdictions. They are the subject of an RCMP investigation, which is a rather unusual situation. Because of that ongoing investigation and oversight activities, we felt it was appropriate to see that investigation through.
Conservative
Raquel Dancho Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you for your answer.
I do feel, however, that it is warranted, and it's certainly encompassed in the foreign interference sphere that has been talked about quite a bit. I see that you're nodding in agreement, so I appreciate that.
I feel that leaving it out does feed into a bit of a perception of bias, which has been a criticism of this report and of you leading the report, in the sense that it has been a failure of the Liberal government to drag its feet on bringing forward a foreign agent registry act. That would be the vital tool needed to hold accountable those operating these illegal Beijing police stations, which are a very clear violation of our sovereignty. They are a slap in the face to all Canadians. That is a tool we need to hold accountable those who are responsible for this, and again, the Liberal government has dragged its feet for a number of years. I do feel, sir, that it would have been a well-placed criticism within this report. There were very few, if any, criticisms of the current Liberal government in the report.
I found it concerning as well that you left out that the Trudeau Foundation, given the leaked report from CSIS, had been given $140,000 through various channels from the Communist Party of China. CSIS said in the leak that, through a wiretap, it was found to have been donated for the express purpose of influencing Justin Trudeau, who would ultimately become the Prime Minister. Again, not including that leads to a perception of bias, sir. Whether warranted or not, I think that's certainly a valid perception that many people beyond the Conservative Party have pointed out.
Again, I appreciate that you do not see a conflict of interest with Justin Trudeau or with the Trudeau family. I do have to point out that it is not common, certainly, in Canada that people are friends with prime ministers' sons, and that they have dinner with them and go skiing with them.
I am a McGill graduate, sir, and I appreciate that you were also at McGill. You mentioned several times that you ran into Justin Trudeau at McGill and that you saw him there. I can tell you, when I was at McGill, I didn't know who the president was, let alone run into him or her on multiple occasions.
I do feel that, because of your long career and your service to Canada, you have very clear connections to a very elite group of what some call “Liberal insiders” that perhaps you don't recognize. That has provided a very clear perception of bias with your appointment, sir. Whether rightly or wrongly, I do feel that those who hold that perception have a good reason in this regard.
Ultimately, sir, while the report is extensive, it does downplay a lot of the concerns and the leaks we have seen from reputable journalists in The Globe and Mail. It denies certain ones. It calls certain other ones false and says that the conclusions were false. You are quite critical, and I do appreciate that you don't see it this way, but this report, sir, is quite critical of the media and their discussion of these leaks in the news to tell the public.
It is also quite critical of the Conservative Party in the way we have held the government accountable upon learning of these leaks. Again, it is not very critical at all of the Liberal Party, despite the fact that they have really not held anyone accountable for the police stations, for the intimidation of MP Chong, MP O'Toole, MP Kwan and MP Chiu, and for the targeting of the Conservative Party of Canada. In fact, the one diplomat expelled would not have been expelled if those leaks had not happened, yet there is nothing critical about the lack of action to hold anyone accountable for these things in this report.
Sir, respectfully, I do feel that the perception of bias is warranted, both in the report and given your history with the Trudeau family.
I will just conclude, Madam Chair.
I urge you to respect the will of Parliament, Mr. Johnston, with three votes calling for a public inquiry. Respect the will of Parliament and honourably step down following that.
Thank you, Mr. Johnston.
Independent Special Rapporteur on Foreign Interference, As an Individual
Madam Chair, first of all, with respect to having no criticism of the government, the report goes into considerable detail to say that we have a system of dealing with foreign interference that is not working. It points out a number of the areas of defects. I have welcomed the initiatives that have been taken, such as working to now establish a foreign agent registry, which would put that in the public realm. That's been a matter to study, because it has pros and cons, but I think there's action on that. That's very encouraging.
With respect to friendship, acquaintances and so on, you suggested that somehow my realm of friends is with senior Liberal Party people. I've been fortunate in my life to be president of two important universities in this country. I've been involved in somewhere between two and three dozen inquiries, advisory boards and so on. In the course of that kind of work, one is given the opportunity to meet with senior officials, be they Conservative or any other party. That, for me, is simply part of my life, so to suggest that I'm part of a Liberal clique is just wrong.