Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Commr Michael Duheme]

As my colleague Mr. Flynn said, in Canada we have two separate entities with different mandates. There's the RCMP, for criminal matters, and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

As for the question of dependence on the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, I would say that there are files that are generated by the police. Because of the capabilities and different techniques that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service uses, it is exposed to more information than the RCMP.

The same is true with our international partners: Some send us documents that raise a dilemma for the service, that of using this information in a criminal case. This situation occurs not only with our Canadian partners, but also with our international partners.

That's why I was talking about tools. If we were investigating foreign interference, we'd mainly use the tools relating to the transmission of this intelligence to the person in charge of a police investigation. We'd also be looking at how to change legislation.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I see.

In a few seconds, what do you think about the transmission of information by MI5, in Westminster, for example? There, the Speaker of the House is directly informed of a potential threat to an elected member.

Do you think it would be a good idea to do that here in Canada?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I am not aware of the international briefing structure or that of MI5. In fact, personally, I haven't even had to brief the Prime Minister on criminal matters. Nor am I familiar with the briefing process for other agencies or entities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Madam Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

My next question returns back to the diaspora communities.

We know there's often a level of distrust, especially for newcomers who come to Canada from some of these targeted countries with authoritarian governments. I'm curious if there are strategies for rural and urban communities—because I think they both matter and they're both distinct and different—for how to do that outreach.

Does the RCMP have enough resources to spend the time building these relationships?

You talked about going forward and some of the work you've done lately with the police stations and starting to build those relationships, but I'm wondering if there are the resources there to do that work.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the question.

I'll hand it over to Mark Flynn to add to it, but I'm of the opinion that we have to build and maintain relationships with these communities, and make these people trust us to ensure that they can come forward, because this has been going on for quite some time. Just to come in an open door and see us...I can understand it is challenging, but it's all about building this relationship.

I'll ask Mark to elaborate on the work we're doing right now within the RCMP with these communities.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I'll go rapid-fire in respect of your time.

Obviously, I've already covered that our very public visibility in the police stations was a key element of being seen to do something, of being seen to care and to be effective. I believe we achieved that initial objective. That isn't enough.

We are continuing to work with community associations. We are creating materials in multiple languages so those communities can engage in their natural language. We've also reached out to some members of Parliament who have come forward and offered their assistance. I don't think we should look to the police to be the sole communicators and the ones who will solve this problem. It's going to require everyone to use all of our access and all of our effort.

When I look at members of Parliament who are in our communities every day—whether it be during campaign time or at your constituency offices—you have that access. You have that influence and you have that respect from the community. We need to leverage that in engaging those communities and helping them understand how Canada is different. The authorities here are not the same authorities who are threatening or intimidating them from afar.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We'll do four minutes and four minutes, and that will bring us close to the top of the hour.

Mr. Cooper, you have four minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Flynn, you stated earlier that you were aware of the threat generally as it pertained to Beijing but not as it pertained specifically to MP Chong. Can you elaborate on that? Were you aware generally that Beijing and Beijing diplomats were targeting MPs even though you weren't aware that those specifically included MP Chong until recently?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I was not aware of specific targeting in the manner in which MP Chong was targeted. I was certainly aware of that being a general threat to diaspora in Canada.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

What general threat were you aware of?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

It was intimidation of family members from afar.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you.

Jody Thomas confirmed that the July 2021 CSIS memo indicating that MPs were being targeted by a Beijing diplomat at Beijing's Toronto consulate was sent to three deputy ministers as well as the PCO, including the Prime Minister's national security and intelligence adviser. Was that memo passed on to the RCMP?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Madam Chair, I don't recall seeing it. I truly don't recall.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You don't recall...?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I don't recall reading anything to that effect with regard to the interference. It doesn't mean it wasn't discussed during meetings at a lower level, but I don't recall seeing that.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You don't know whether it was passed on to the RCMP.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I'm saying it might have been passed on to the program without my being aware of it, since I was formerly in Mark's chair. I don't recall seeing anything.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Flynn, do you have something to add on that?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

I would just say that in order to speak authoritatively to this, we'd have to see the memo and come back to you and let you know whether or not we had seen it.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Could you undertake to come back based upon what has been reported of that memo—whether it had been passed on to the RCMP at any point? Is that a fair undertaking?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

We can undertake it. I will caution, though, that if that memo has not been transitioned to us, I'd be comparing with the public discourse on it, but we can work with our partners to come back.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay. If you could do that as well as you could, it would be appreciated.

Both of you indicated that there are ongoing investigations pertaining to illegal police stations but that no arrests have been made. Is that correct?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

That's correct.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

How many sites of illegal police activity has the RCMP taken action in respect of?