Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 13th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 82 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The committee is studying the question of privilege related to the member for Wellington—Halton Hills and other members.

With us today, we have Michael Duheme, commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and Mark Flynn, deputy commissioner.

We welcome you to the procedure and House affairs committee. Thank you for responding to our request so quickly. Kudos to you and your team for your quick communications.

With that, Commissioner Duheme, you will have up to five minutes for your opening comments before we start our rounds of questions.

[Commissioner Michael Duheme, Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Madam Chair, committee members, there's no need for introductions. The Chair looked after that.

I want to highlight that Deputy Commissioner Flynn was in charge of most of our foreign interference files in the last couple of years, so a wealth of knowledge is here, and I hope we will be able to share that knowledge with all of the members here.

As you're likely aware, foreign interference poses a complex threat to the security of Canada and Canadians. The RCMP is actively leveraging all tools at its disposal to combat foreign interference. We're working closely with our domestic and international partners to take a multipronged approach and to share as much information as possible.

In a minute I'll come back in more detail to how we're tackling foreign interference, but I assure you we're doing everything we can to keep Canadians safe.

Foreign interference can involve various states such as the People's Republic of China, the Russian Federation and the Islamic Republic of Iran, among others, attacking Canada, its institutions, its society and its citizens.

These activities are undertaken to advance the strategic interests of a state, and the methods can include threats of violence, coercion, or surveillance of the public, including culturally or linguistically diverse groups, human rights defenders, political dissidents, pro-democracy advocates, and politicians at all levels, including members of Parliament.

I will speak to two issues today. I'll speak about the RCMP's role in responding to and investigating foreign interference-related threats to public safety, including members of the public and MPs, and how members of Parliament can identify and report foreign interference-related activities to the RCMP.

First of all, the intimidation of MPs is worrying, as it poses a threat to the security of elected leaders and our democracy. Foreign actors are attempting to undermine our sovereignty and exercise the power of foreign states on a transnational scale. I want to assure the members of this committee that we are aware of these threats, we are responding and we are fighting foreign interference.

The RCMP has opened an investigation of reported allegations of intimidation targeting the Hon. Michael Chong, and has contacted the Commissioner of Canada Elections regarding other allegations that have come to light that fall under his mandate, and has offered its assistance.

Within the Government of Canada's approach, the RCMP has a number of tools at its disposal to address foreign interference. The RCMP's investigative teams may leverage specific provisions of the Criminal Code to investigate potential threats of violence, harassment and intimidation involving state actors. These could include breach of trust, intimidation, criminal harassment and foreign-influenced threats or violence, which fall under the Security of Information Act.

We use the knowledge gained from our criminal intelligence, as well as our collaborations with domestic and international law enforcement and security and intelligence partners, to adapt to the criminal methods used by foreign actors.

The RCMP works closely with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, CSIS, under our co‑operation agreement. We have undertaken to ensure the effectiveness of this partnership despite some of the challenges we still face in using partner intelligence to advance criminal investigations.

That said, much work has been achieved following the Operational Improvement Review, conducted in 2018, which focused on the challenges of using intelligence as evidence. Of the 76 recommendations, 18 have yet to be fully implemented to facilitate the full use of intelligence to prosecute criminal cases.

It is important to underline our co-operation with local police jurisdictions, as well as our domestic and international law enforcement and security and intelligence partners to address foreign interference activities. I recently attended a Five Eyes law enforcement meeting in Australia, and foreign interference was the key topic of our discussions.

With that, I will open it up. Mark and I welcome questions with regard to foreign interference.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Commissioner, for those great comments, and for bringing Mr. Flynn along with you today.

We will enter the six-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Cooper followed by Mr. Turnbull, Madame Gaudreau and then Ms. Blaney.

Mr. Cooper, you have the floor.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Duheme and Mr. Flynn, for appearing this morning.

When did the RCMP open its investigation concerning Beijing's intimidation campaign targeting MP Chong?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

With regard to MP Chong, we found out about it through the committee here and through the media.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

So it started in the last few weeks.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Yes, and when we were made aware of it, we approached Mr. Chong and began the investigation.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you for that.

You also indicated that the RCMP has passed on information to the Commissioner of Canada Elections. Does that pertain to the intimidation campaign targeting MP Chong?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

That would include not necessarily intimidation, but other elected officials who have come to the surface with regard to possible meddling by the PRC.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Are those upper members of Parliament?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would use Mr. O'Toole as an example.

Mark, do you have anything to add?

[Deputy Commissioner Mark Flynn, Deputy Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I'd be happy to answer, Chair, if that's okay.

The RCMP is aware of the public visibility into different accusations of interference in democratic processes, including Mr. Chong as well as other members of Parliament that you've heard about who have spoken either in Parliament or in various committees about meddling in elections, misinformation or interference and voter influencing that's going on.

What the RCMP has done, because there's a primary responsibility for some of those offences with the Commissioner of Canada Elections, is that, through an MOU, the RCMP has an agreement to provide any assistance that is required to the Commissioner of Canada Elections in their investigation of those incidents, and has reached out to offer any and all assistance with respect to what we have recently learned about what has been occurring with respect to specific individuals.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Just to clarify that, one thing that the RCMP has learned about is the spreading of disinformation or misinformation by foreign state actors such as the Beijing regime in the democratic context of elections.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

We have learned about specific individuals who were targeted through the public disclosure—not through other means, but through the public disclosure by specific individuals who have been targeted. It is those matters that we've reached out to the Commissioner of Canada Elections to offer our assistance on if required.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

How many individuals have been targeted?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

As of this point, I believe there are two in addition to Michael Chong.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

One of the two individuals you cited was Mr. O'Toole. Was the other Ms. Kwan?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Okay, thank you for that.

Has the RCMP opened any other investigations pertaining to the targeting of MP Kwan, MP O'Toole or any other member of parliament?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

We have not.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Is there anything you wish to add to update the committee on in regard to the situation regarding MP Chong, MP O'Toole or MP Kwan?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

No.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you.

Switching gears a little bit, on June 1, the CBC reported that, "The RCMP says it has 'shut down illegal police activity in Ontario, Quebec, and British Columbia' connected to so-called Chinese 'police stations'".

Have all of Beijing's illegal police stations that the RCMP is aware of as operating in Canada been shut down?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

I would say to that, Madam Chair, based on the work that's been done, the overt action that the RCMP has taken on the multiple sites, that we are comfortable, based on the criminal intelligence that we have, that the activities in the specific areas have shut down. I put a caveat to that: the policing activities have shut down, but be mindful that the buildings they using were sometimes community halls, which are meant for other means. But we are confident, with the intelligence that we have, that the policing activity that was being done there has been shut down, and investigations are continuing.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

When were those illegal police activities shut down? Can you provide a timeline?