Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 13th, 2023

[David Morrison]

The only element of the Johnston report I would take issue with is the notion of a top secret system that a minister may or may not have had access to. I know such systems exist within Global Affairs Canada and exist within the Privy Council Office. I've never personally used one, so I doubt very much that a minister's office.... I don't know how the Minister of Public Safety's office is set up, but since I joined the Canadian government about 10 years ago, all of the intel I have ever seen has come in hard copy.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much for that. That also, again, is consistent with other testimony we've heard around this table from members of the national security and intelligence community.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

We are going to now enter our final round.

Deputy, as you know, we started about 10 minutes late, so we'll just be going about 10 minutes past the hour.

What we'll do is give five minutes to Mr. Calkins followed by five minutes for Mr. Fergus, Madame Gaudreau and Madame Blaney.

Mr. Fergus, Ms. Gaudreau and Ms. Blaney will also have five minutes.

Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Morrison, for coming back to committee.

Can you just reiterate, for the committee and for people who are watching, how many times David Johnston met with you in regard to the report he issued?

[David Morrison]

It was three times.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Was that in person or over the phone? How did that happen?

[David Morrison]

On all three occasions, I went to a location in central Ottawa from where this process was being conducted. It was in a secure facility. On one of those three occasions, I recall Mr. Johnston's being on video. On the other two, I believe he was there in person.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

You say it was only three times. I do believe there's information out there suggesting you met with him four times, but I'm not going to get into....

[David Morrison]

I believe your question was on when he was preparing the report. I met with him an additional time after the report came out—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you.

[David Morrison]

—so it was a total of four times.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

It was a total of four times. Thank you.

Today, before this committee, you've talked about the special report. In your conversations with David Johnson did you disclose or have a conversation with him about that special report? I ask because I don't see any reference in the Johnston report to the January 2022 special report.

[David Morrison]

To the best of my recollection, in all of my interactions with Mr. Johnston and his team, we were not dealing principally or even occasionally with individual pieces of intel.

The first time I met Mr. Johnston was on Easter Monday in the afternoon, and it was.... I believe, by that time, Mr. Johnston had had introductory briefings with a range of federal public service colleagues.

As deputy minister of foreign affairs, I'm responsible for something called the rapid-response mechanism. I was on the panel of five, but I believe most of the introductory briefings came from the security and intelligence community. I was interested—and he was interested, I think—in learning more about the difference between foreign interference and foreign influence.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Did you need to go to a remote, secure location to have that general conversation? It seems to me that if you're going to a secure location to have a meeting, you would be talking about classified information.

Am I missing something?

[David Morrison]

I believe the set-up was established by the Privy Council Office. It had a secure location and a top-secret location, if I remember. I know I had to leave my phone outside and take off my smart watch. That is because such conversations can range over a wide variety of topics. We therefore took appropriate protections.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

You talked about your role on the panel of five. The Johnston report doesn't even address the issues pertaining to this memo and other information. He only addressed the panel of five as it pertains to the 2019 election.

Is there a reason why Mr. Johnston would not have included those conversations or any information from the panel of five in the 2021 election? It seems odd that it's missing from his report. You were a member of the panel of five in 2021, but not in 2019. Do I have right?

[David Morrison]

You have that correct.

I don't consider it curious, at all, that his report....

Let me just say the following: There were reports produced by Jim Judd and Morris Rosenberg about the functioning of the panel in 2019 and 2021. I would recommend those to the committee.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I have one more follow-up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm sorry.

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Nater?

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair. I will be exceptionally brief.

I don't want misinformation before the committee. A document tabled yesterday by Mr. Fergus indicates that Mr. Morrison met with Mr. Johnston four times before Mr. Johnston's report was table: on April 10, April 12, April 13 and April 25.

I just don't want misinformation to hang before the committee.

[David Morrison]

May I respond to that, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm sorry. I'm going to—

[David Morrison]

I just want to say that I believe I said, “to the best of my recollection”. If I met four times with David Johnston before the publication of the report, I apologize. That was my recollection. The record can be corrected accordingly.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We appreciate that, because I think there is a lot going on. I think Mr. Nater's point is well received, and we appreciate the clarification. That means the record will reflect accurately what was said. We'll make sure your comments match.

Mr. Calkins, because the exchange was so peaceful and good, yes, there's one more question from you.