Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I don't want to cut you off, Mr. Morrison. I'm aware of that.

We ourselves meet with people. We prepare backgrounders on them, obviously. Anyone who comes to see a member of Parliament, when there's a new election.... Anybody who's a lobbyist will do profiles on each of us. I think that's normal. It's not illegal to do. They look at our bios, they try to make connections and so on and so forth.

What I'm trying to get at here is that, when Michael Chong received a briefing on June 24, 2021, it would have prompted him, because three subsequent meetings at his request happened. I'll speak to Mr. Vigneault this evening about this. I think it was more him providing background to CSIS or information to them based on the defensive briefing.

What I'm trying to understand is this: When was Mr. Chong notified that his family and himself were being...? I don't want to say “targeted”, because there were no imminent threats, but I'm not trying to downplay what happened to him—not at all. What I'm trying to understand is this: When was he made aware that he was a person of interest per se?

[David Morrison]

Again, I think you should ask CSIS. My understanding is that this was quite recent.

I want to be clear. The original intel on Michael Chong, as I have read it now, was not about an influence map; it was definitely something that went well over the line of foreign interference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

This topic has expanded, but I appreciate the commentary on the question of privilege.

Based on question period yesterday, it sounds like our colleague would like to see a response coming out of this committee. Helping to get to a response would help satisfy the person whose question of privilege it is, namely, Mr. Chong.

You have three minutes, Ms. Gaudreau.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I don't know if I've understood you correctly, but you can see that this requires a lot of work and that taking on the oversight role, i.e., filtering the information well, becoming aware of it and following the whole disclosure process, seems superhuman. Have you ever, following an alert, said you needed help?

Witnesses have told us that this task involves reading 3,000, 4,000 or 5,000 reports. Did you ever mention that the task, to ensure a good oversight, was colossal?

[David Morrison]

Thank you for the question, Madam Chair.

I do think there is an issue with triaging the relevance of the information that comes in because of its volume. I think this is part of the tightening up within the public service that Jody Thomas and others spoke about.

There's a difference between a piece of intel that names names and says things might happen to people and a piece of intel.... I should say that most of the intel that I consume in my current job is intel about things happening out in the world.

There's a nice-to-know and need-to-know trade-off that isn't always apparent when the packs arrive. That is something we are tightening up on.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That's fine. I'm not an expert on the machinery of government, although I'm in my second term. I'd like to know who appoints the chief of staff. Who makes the appointment? Who is in charge of services?

I'm trying to understand who the employer is.

[David Morrison]

Are you talking about ministers, or other people?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'm talking about Ms. Katie Telford, who is chief of staff.

[David Morrison]

All right. So you're talking about the Prime Minister's chief of staff.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Is it the Prime Minister?

[David Morrison]

Yes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

All right.

Who hires someone like Jody Thomas, who is National Security and Intelligence Advisor to the Prime Minister?

[David Morrison]

What do you mean by “hires”?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Who appoints a person to this position?

[David Morrison]

That is the Clerk of the Privy Council. I believe this is with the agreement of the Prime Minister, given that in the public service of Canada, this is one of the most important people. He or she is the person responsible for coordinating national security responses and information.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'll come back to it later.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I'm going to follow up. I think you clarified what you said, which is basically that the function of the protocols that were in place in 2021 were followed. To me, that lets us know that there was a problem with the protocols. That is an opinion that I can have, but I felt that was a clear statement that you made.

Ms. Thomas talked to us about looking at that system and changing it fundamentally. She feels it will help to assist in moving it forward.

I'm wondering two things.

One is, when you were reviewing your position after you left, was there any process where you passed on information to the new person? Were those processes something that you denoted as being a concern in terms of sharing information?

The second part is that hopefully you have heard some of Ms. Thomas's testimony: She talked about revamping the system. Having your experience in that role, do you feel that is a good move and does that make sense?

[David Morrison]

I don't recall exactly what I told Jody Thomas when I passed the baton to her in early 2022. I do recall that we talked about personnel and some other things.

However, with regard to your broader question about some reforms and tightening up the system, I think that is a good idea. I started to say, in response to another question, that the world has changed, and I think that we have some structures and processes and so on that were optimized for a different time. The nature of threats to Canada has changed. I think that should be very clear. We're now in a geopolitical environment unlike any that I have experienced in my 30-some years on the international scene. When the world changes, I think it's incumbent upon structures, systems and outlooks to change, as well. That would include how Canada processes intelligence, produces intelligence and gets intelligence to policy-makers and so on.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I think my time is up, so thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Ms. Blaney, you put a smile on my face. Thank you.

Mr. Nater, you have five minutes.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Madame Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Morrison, for joining us here today.

I want to follow up on some comments and some dates that have been thrown out. I want to confirm that you received the nine-page memo in your reading package on August 17, 2021, and that this reading package was prepared for you by a PCO official. Is that correct?

[David Morrison]

Yes.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Are aware that two days prior to that—August 15—the Prime Minister dissolved Parliament, triggering an election? Were you aware of that fact at the time of August 17?

[David Morrison]

I was aware that an election had been called.