Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 17th, 2023

[Tara Denham]

Thank you for the question.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Did that make any sense? I don't know.

[Tara Denham]

I think it did. I will attempt to answer on my views there.

On the RRM itself, again, as I've said a few times, I think there are various tools. We have to use all the tools as designed. There are always ways in which we can improve the tools, but then we have to complement them with other efforts. The RRM is a very tactical team in terms of understanding that information environment. It's a particular skill set to do what I've described. I think that needs to be protected, with an ability to share with allies, academics and researchers about what we're seeing so that we can increase our understanding in complement.

Then a full spectrum of effort needs to take place. Another part under my responsibilities is the digital inclusion lab, which then works on, as I mentioned briefly, the declaration on information integrity. This is where you're taking a combination of operational lessons that we may be learning and some of our other policy work on protecting human rights online and off-line. Then we look at what the opportunities are and where we can advance that internationally.

There is a full spectrum of tools. It's not necessarily the RRM, I would say, but are we looking at that? Absolutely. The declaration on information integrity is actually an excellent example of that. We're working with other governments to identify the various mechanisms we could use and the various approaches. With that type of declaration we ask countries to sign on. Currently, 30 countries have signed on. One of those commitments is for countries to abstain from and condemn state-led disinformation campaigns. It also invites private sector companies and industry to enhance transparency in advertising, algorithms and content moderation.

We have to use everything at our disposal to address this. Those would be some tools within Global Affairs, but there are also a lot of other actors in this space.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

It's excellent to see that there's progress being made. However, I think we can't move fast enough on this. This problem is growing at a rapid speed. If it doesn't rise to the level or the threshold today, then it will soon enough.

You've had experience in this over the last few elections. From that experience, can you tell me how many countries are heavily involved in influencing Canada's election? If you're comfortable, can you name some of those countries?

[Tara Denham]

I think others have testified in front of this committee, including the NSIA, who has been here before, and our deputy minister, and named some of the countries that are primarily involved in this. We've seen China and Russia involved in this. I think the committee has heard that on a number of occasions.

There is also a lot of public reporting. We have CSIS reporting on this. We also have a rapid response mechanism annual report that I believe is publicly available and has been shared. I think all of these actually give the committee a lot of nuancing about who those actors are and the types of tactics they're using.

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. Gaudreau.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Usually, I try to look for the positive, but at some point, you have to tell it like it is. The work we've done has paved the way for one thing, in particular—

[Ruby Sahota, Liberal, Brampton North, ON]

I have a point of order. There is no interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We'll just pause. There is no interpretation. I understand it's not working.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

French would be great.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Is it working now?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It would be great if the witness could answer in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

It seems to be working now.

You can start over, Ms. Gaudreau.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'll be perfectly frank. The committee's proceedings highlighted how urgent the important stuff is.

It's been said over and over again: the information culture is not what it appears. At least we've learned that. I still have questions. Is the Communications Security Establishment looking for people with the ability to explore tactics? You said you had an amazing tactical team. I appreciate that, but will this issue be a priority going forward? The hole has been patched up a few times, but the leak hasn't been fixed. It's sad to see what's going on. The situation is critical.

Reassure me, please. Tell me that you're taking this very seriously, that this kind of thing won't happen again, and that it will no longer take months and months to get to the bottom of an event like this. Parliamentarians and our institutions need to be protected for the sake of our democracy.

[Tara Denham]

Thank you.

Is it a priority, and will we be able to respond faster?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Do you see this as urgent and important?

[Tara Denham]

The RRM was created five years ago. It's very new, actually. I'm very proud that it was put in place. It was identified that there was an emerging threat and there was a gap, and Canada actually took leadership there. I think that's a really good thing. However, we have to keep on top of that. We have to keep on top of the game.

For us, absolutely it's a priority. We work with our international partners. I would say that the work we're doing is on par with that of a lot of our allies.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I want to hear you use the word “urgent”. I have all sorts of priorities in life, but they're five years down the road.

Is this something you need to address urgently?

[Tara Denham]

Yes. For me, it's a priority. It is urgent that we address it. I've said a few times that I am representing a tool in the tool kit. I think there are many layers to the work we do. As Canadians, and within Canada, we have to look at that full picture and at what we are doing to protect it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, you have two and a half minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a couple of questions. Since I have such a short time, maybe I'll ask both of them and then let you do your best to answer.

First of all, I agree that this needs to be dealt with urgently. It's not just about protecting MPs; it's also about protecting democracy and candidates. Could you share a little bit about what lessons were learned from the by-elections and how that is impacting the next steps to prepare for ongoing elections?

I noticed in your response to me last time around that you talked a lot about how Canadians need to understand misinformation, and you implied that we kind of are. I'll tell you that in my riding I'm seeing an increase in misinformation and in people being very confused and sometimes very angry and frustrated based on things that are totally misinformation. The resources to help support people are not easy to find. I'm wondering about the work you do, especially around human rights, freedoms and inclusion, which is really about educating people so they know what's coming at them and how to decipher that.

I want to know about lessons learned and what's happening around actually educating Canadians.

[Tara Denham]

Thank you.

In terms of lessons learned from the by-elections, again, that was the first time the SITE task force was put in place for the by-elections, and we are of course having ongoing conversations about what could be done. I can't speak to any of the final recommendations because those conversations are in play.

For the RRM, as I've said, I actually think it was a success story that we were able to identify an activity. We were able to actually do the research, and while perhaps different people's definitions of “rapid” may be different, I just want to reiterate that this is a very technical area. You do want to be sure when you are putting it in public that it is founded and that it is accurate, that it is as accurate as you can be, because what we're trying to do is use it to educate Canadians, so you want to be increasing that through the most accurate information that you can. In terms of success, that was one. I think we've seen that as well with allies. It shed light on the issue so that we can continue to do that and continue to contribute to the learning.

In terms of misinformation and disinformation, again, I focus my work on disinformation. I know these words probably are thrown around a lot, but misinformation could be inaccurate information. It may not be intentful. It may just be inaccurate information. Disinformation has a covert nature to it, so I'm focused on that.

However, on misinformation and what we're doing in Canada, the RRM is focused on sharing more information, but I believe this committee has heard from other departments. Canadian Heritage has a lot of programs out there. We work with our other departments to actually look at the full breadth of how we can improve education and awareness in Canada.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I understand that you're in conversations about what the lessons learned were. Will there be anything that comes out publicly or that can be sent to this committee to let us know what was learned from the process? I'm just wondering.

[Tara Denham]

Again, in the by-elections, there were actually no findings of foreign interference. That was publicly available. Those reports are there.

What we're doing is making sure.... We're having conversations to make sure that we're always improving or reflecting on where we are as SITE members. There wouldn't be anything per se in terms of findings from the by-elections.