Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Now we will enter the third round, starting with Mr. Melillo. Welcome back to PROC.

Mr. Melillo, go ahead, for five minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to be back at the committee.

Mr. Perrault, I appreciate your taking the time to speak to the committee today.

I represent the riding of Kenora, which of course as you know had a number of issues throughout the course of the election. Before I get to my questions, I want to put a bit of context on the record from my experience, particularly in the far north in the first nations communities that you mentioned earlier on.

The returning officer in our riding actually reached out to all of our campaigns. It was clear to every single campaign that the election day in some of the communities was essentially going to be moved. In Pikangikum specifically this was the case. It was to accommodate a traditional harvesting day that coincided with the election. That was clearly communicated to the campaigns—I can tell you that.

I was quite shocked to see in the days after the election that the community itself was not aware of that. I had a call from the chief of Pikangikum, who told me that there was never any communication to him that that was going to be the case.

In another instance, in Northwest Angle, prior to election day the chief reached out to me to ask where her polling station was. When I went to the Elections Canada website I found out that she was actually listed as the contact for the polling location. Again, there was clearly a breakdown of communication, to put it mildly.

It wasn't just in the first nations, actually. There were many other concerns as well.

Red Lake is another example, where the advance polling station that was advertised online and communicated to the campaigns was actually not where the polling station was. I just found that out because I happened to be driving by. I stopped by because there were no cars in the parking lot, and it looked like there was no one there, and there wasn't. The polling station was not at that location.

In trying to spread some news about that, I shared the information on Facebook and was actually flagged for spreading misinformation, which of course was untrue, by Elections Canada. It was actually Elections Canada that was incorrect.

I know there was a lot to take in there. There were clearly some widespread systemic, structural issues that go far beyond just one or two communities.

My questions to you are through the chair. How do we explain that? Is it a function of the snap election, a pandemic election, of a shorter writ period? How can that happen in a general election in Canada?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I share your shock and anger. If you were flagged for misinformation that's because we were not informed of those changes. I was not aware that the polling day had been cancelled. While you had been informed of the change in Pikangikum, we were not. So, when you say there were—

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Madam Chair, can I ask who is then responsible for that decision, if you were not aware? That sounds like something you should be aware of.

[Stéphane Perrault]

It certainly is something that I should be aware of. The cancellation of a polling day, on polling day, is extraordinary. It's something that needs to be communicated to headquarters. I need to know, and we need to be able to take measures to inform voters through all kinds of means. Clearly, that did not take place in Kenora.

You raise a number of circumstances. I'm not sure I'm aware of all of those circumstances, but I recognize there was a breakdown in communication, and that was problematic.

Not all of that can be explained by COVID or the circumstances of this election. The returning officer has moved on. He's retired. We will be recruiting. Certainly communications with local communities will rank very high on the priorities of the returning officer, and of course communications with headquarters will be emphasized as well.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

One more question is all I have time for, Madam Chair.

I'd just like to ask if you can share a bit of information on what concrete steps you are going to take to ensure that this never happens again in Kenora, or in any electoral district across the country?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I have already mentioned one. I think it's maybe the most important one. A lot of the confusion that took place was the result of shifting days of voting because there had not been planned advance polls. Had there been at least one day of advance polls in Pikangikum, or Poplar Hill or Cat Lake, the leaders there would not have had to call a returning officer and indicate that September 20 was a problem. They would have been satisfied with the existence of an alternative. The lack of an alternative polling day was at the root cause of the confusion and the error of cancelling a polling day in those communities.

I think that is the most important aspect, and it reaches well beyond, as I've said before, Kenora. That is something we need to expand across Canada in remote and rural areas.

I think, beyond that, the issues of communications are more local. We need to reinforce, of course, the mechanisms and the importance of communicating both at headquarters and with the communities.

I also mentioned that we're putting together a team who will look into how we engage with, communicate with and understand first nations communities. We will have members of first nations communities involved in that team. I certainly hope we will have the opportunity to work closely with the communities in Kenora as part of that initiative, to see how we can improve the services in the long term.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Perrault, whose responsibility would it be to inform you of such a change?

[Stéphane Perrault]

If a poll is cancelled on polling day, I expect the returning officer to communicate with headquarters about the cancellation so that we could put in place communications for the electors in that community.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

So the returning officer would be calling central not calling you directly?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Correct.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that information.

Mr. Gerretsen, you have five minutes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, my questions are for Mr. Perrault and are on the topic of election financing.

There are reports that there is a lot of money that's currently being raised by the protests and blockades that are going on in Canada right now that is coming in from foreign sources. One leaked document from one of the fundraising organizations suggests that as much as 61% of money is coming from foreign sources.

If the organizers of those protests or blockades were to turn around and use that money for leadership campaigns, or towards election campaigns, would that be considered illegal?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Through the chair.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Yes, Madam Chair, there are existing provisions in the act that quite clearly say that foreign funds cannot be used for regulated activities, including partisan activities, and that would include leadership races. There is a prohibition in the legislation.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

Sorry, and I did say through the chair at the beginning so this is all through the chair.

What is being done to ensure that happens, through the chair?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Madam Chair, let me answer in a twofold way.

First of all, the commissioner is the one whose responsible for looking into enforcement of the act. The facts are, of course, extremely important, and whether there are actual funds that are being transferred, and that are, in fact, being used for partisan activities are all matters of fact that need to be looked into. I cannot speak to that, but it doesn't flow necessarily from the fact that some funds have been raised and there may be some partisan activity that there's a connection.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Now—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to pause the clock for a second.

Mr. Perrault, there is a procedure where the amount of time that the questioner poses is about the time that you would take to answer.

I will provide leniency, Mr. Gerretsen, when the answers are too long if they do provide substance so please rest assured that you will get your answers.

Mr. Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

By my count, I have three minutes left.

Through you, Madam Chair, what if the money that was raised was utilized by a third party? For example, there are a number of banners that are being erected around the Wellington Street area on the back of trucks that say Pierre Poilievre for Prime Minister.

If fundraising dollars through fundraising efforts that were coming in from the United States and other parts of the world, which were then being used by a third party to create such banners, would that be considered illegal?

[Stéphane Perrault]

There are prohibitions on using foreign funds for partisan activities, and that applies even outside of the electoral campaign.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

That applies equally to the direct campaign as it would a third party.

[Stéphane Perrault]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Can a third party take money that's been fundraised from outside of the country and use it for political purposes to influence political purposes and to influence election campaigns, leadership campaigns, within the country?