Evidence of meeting #98 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fergus.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Eric Janse  Acting Clerk of the House of Commons
Jeffrey LeBlanc  Acting Deputy Clerk, Procedure, House of Commons
Michel Bédard  Interim Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
John Fraser  Member of Provincial Parliament, Legislative Assembly of Ontario, As an Individual
Simon Tunstall  Chief Returning Officer, 2023 Leadership Election, Ontario Liberal Party

8:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 98 of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The committee is meeting today to study the question of privilege related to the Speaker's public participation at an Ontario Liberal Party convention.

This is a reminder that care must be taken. Please don't have your earpieces near the microphone.

All comments will go through the chair. The clerk and I will maintain a consolidated speaking list.

We have with us today Eric Janse, acting clerk of the House of Commons. Just so we know, this committee has the power to remove “acting” from his title. I'll just be a little bit biased and share that. I hope we do.

We also have Michel Bédard, interim law clerk and parliamentary counsel, Office of the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel; and Jeffrey LeBlanc, acting deputy clerk, procedure.

I understand that one person is bringing comments, and you will have up to 10 minutes for those comments. The time starts now.

Welcome to PROC.

Clerk, you have the floor.

8:30 a.m.

Eric Janse Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank you and the members of the committee for inviting me to appear today to discuss the question of privilege that you are studying. I hope my testimony will assist the committee members in their deliberations on the question of privilege that the House has referred to you.

My contribution to the committee's study today will be some general observations on the committee's role. I will be providing some information that I hope will be of use to the committee in its consideration of this question.

In adopting its order of reference, the House determined that the matter required further examination and that your committee was the most appropriate forum to do so. Usually, when considering a question of privilege, a committee first seeks to determine the facts surrounding the events in question. It can then assess whether those events constitute, in its opinion, a breach of members' privileges or contempt of the House. Finally, it can examine corrective measures, if any, to be proposed in the circumstances.

This is, in fact, what the order adopted by the House on December 6 is calling for. It goes without saying that the House itself will ultimately decide whether its privileges have been breached and what action is appropriate in the circumstances.

Invariably, by the nature of our parliamentary and electoral systems, Speakers have to walk a tightrope, balancing their duties in the chair, their role in representing the interest of their constituents and the fact that they are still members elected under the banner of a party. This challenge is perhaps even greater in the age of social media.

The Standing Orders of the House do not provide a framework for the concept of the impartiality of the chair or for the other roles that the Speaker may perform outside the House. The Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs has seemingly never been directed to consider a question of privilege related to the conduct and actions of a Speaker of the House.

A review of precedents from other Canadian legislatures may provide a few areas to think about.

I would like to put forward for your consideration a 2016 study by the Standing Committee on Rules, Regulations, Private Bills and Privileges in Prince Edward Island. The committee did a comparative analysis on partisan activities of Speakers from various legislative assemblies in Canada.

It would appear that certain assemblies have previously proposed a variety of measures to frame the principle of impartiality of the chair. Consider, for example, the adoption of resolutions reaffirming the importance of the impartiality of the chair, the prohibition of partisan activities during certain periods, such as before, during and after a session, and the establishment of a code of conduct for the chair and other occupants of the chair.

As for corrective measures to be recommended regarding the Speaker's actions under review, only this committee's members can decide and ultimately the House. It's up to the committee to recommend measures that it considers appropriate and provide guidance to the House on how to respond to this matter.

I will close by thanking you again for inviting me to appear before you. My colleagues and I would be happy to answer any questions that you might have.

8:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bardish Chagger

Thank you, Mr. Janse, for those opening comments.

We will now start our six-minute round with Mr. Cooper, followed by Ms. Romanado, Madame DeBellefeuille and Mr. Julian.

Six minutes go to you, Mr. Cooper, through the chair.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I will direct my questions to Mr. Janse.

Mr. Janse, are you aware of any precedent, whether it be in Ottawa, the provinces or across the Commonwealth, where a Speaker has engaged in a public display of partisanship of the kind we saw on the part of Mr. Fergus?

8:35 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

Through you, Madam Chair, I thank Mr. Cooper for the question.

Again, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, there have been certain cases in some of the Canadian legislatures in which there were questions raised about the activities of Speakers outside of the House. For the most part, these were addressed via a substantive motion and not via a question of privilege study by a committee. There are examples, but perhaps not identical to the one in question.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Are you able to cite any examples?

8:35 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

Again, there was the case in Prince Edward Island where there were questions about the impartiality of the Speaker, although I think that might have been more related to the Speaker's actions in the chamber and not necessarily outside.

I don't know if any of my colleagues can help me out in terms of some of the others.

8:35 a.m.

Jeffrey LeBlanc Acting Deputy Clerk, Procedure, House of Commons

We did sort of canvass our provincial colleagues. There was a case in Nova Scotia, for example, where the Speaker appeared in an ad for their political party along with other members of their caucus. That may have given rise to some questions.

There have occasionally been comments like that about what Speakers do, whether attending party events or appearing in party materials.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Thank you.

Did Mr. Fergus consult you, Mr. Janse, about the appropriateness of recording a video tribute to his Liberal friend John Fraser?

8:35 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

Perhaps I can provide a bit of context. Obviously, I and the entire House administration are available to provide advice and support not only to the Speaker but to all members. The Speaker also, of course, has his own staff that he can rely upon for advice. We, the House administration and I, provide advice on mainly procedural and administrative matters. The Speaker's office would perhaps be better positioned to provide advice to the Speaker on more partisan or party matters.

To answer your question directly, Mr. Cooper, no, I was not consulted.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

When did you first become aware of Mr. Fergus's tribute?

8:35 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

I think it was Saturday via a tweet—actually, I believe it was from you, Mr. Scheer—which then led to some exchanges between me and the Speaker's office.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Had Mr. Fergus sought your advice, what advice would you have provided him?

8:35 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

Through you, Madam Chair, I thank Mr. Cooper for the question.

I think my advice would have been to probably not proceed in this manner or, at a minimum, to perhaps canvass the parties, explain that the Speaker was invited to this event and he was maybe wondering what he should do, and perhaps seek the advice from the parties as to whether or not he should proceed.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Can you elaborate on why you likely would have advised him not to proceed?

8:35 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

I think, again, in our parliamentary tradition, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, there's a bit of a tightrope that the Speaker has to walk in terms of still being a card-carrying member of a party and the importance of being neutral and non-partisan in terms of presiding over the House and the Board of Internal Economy and the like, and that perhaps this was going a bit too far into the partisan sphere.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

He would have crossed a line. Is that fair?

8:40 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

Ultimately, I think that's for this committee to determine, but my advice would have been to not see the Speaker participate in this video.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Okay.

Do the clerks at the table offer chair occupants, including the Speaker, briefings or advice about aspects of their roles and responsibilities upon their election?

8:40 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

It's actually a very good question. It's one of the things we've been reflecting on over the last few days in terms of lessons learned. Of course, whenever a new Speaker is elected, we do provide both written briefing material as well as oral briefings to the Speaker and to the Speaker's staff. Perhaps something we should add a larger section on, in that briefing material, is the role of impartiality.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Written and oral materials are provided, and briefings, to the Speaker and to his staff. I presume those briefings would include informing the Speaker about his or her duty to be non-partisan.

8:40 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

Again, I think in terms of lessons learned, that is probably something we could focus on more, going forward. Again, it's easy to say looking back. I don't think there have been a whole lot of issues in the past. Generally speaking, yes, obviously a transition has to be made when one becomes Speaker.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

Had there been any such briefings—yes or no?

8:40 a.m.

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Eric Janse

There were certainly briefings when Speaker Fergus became Speaker.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB

How many would he have received, again, specific to being non-partisan, etc.?