Evidence of meeting #11 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Grits Abroad
Absolutely. I think there's ample opportunity to establish effective guardrails to prevent such an issue as you've described.
In fact, I think the guardrails that are in place to prevent that for resident Canadians should work for non-resident Canadians. I don't know what is currently preventing resident Canadians from doing the same. I would expect that something comparable should work equally as well.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
The address of a Canadian resident is generally recorded in government systems. That is the address where they receive documents related to various benefits, for example. The home address is therefore much easier to establish than the last address or address of interest of a non-resident citizen.
I'm trying to see how there could be similar safeguards between the two. What might the safeguards be for people living abroad, since they can't be the same?
Director, Grits Abroad
I appreciate that additional aspect to your question. Thanks.
I still don't see it being a difficult challenge to overcome. If there is a most recent address that registers resident Canadians, I think something comparable could be established for those who most recently lived in Canada or who are about to leave. It can't be too great a challenge for Elections Canada—if that's the authority—or for a governmental agency to establish a set of criteria that could be made based on some recommendations by a committee like yourselves to say, “We'd like to establish these following guardrails. It has to be demonstrated by physical proof of a recent address. That could be a bill for some sort of payment tied to a residential address.” I think mechanisms like that work for resident Canadians. I think for somebody in today's increasingly globalized world where there's a greater amount of mobility, a greater number of Canadians moving abroad, coming back.... I don't think it would be difficult for them to be able to establish a most recent address with physical proof. I think that would not be a very difficult challenge to overcome, but it's an important one.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Thank you so much.
Thank you very much, Ms. Normandin.
We will now go to the Conservatives.
Mr. Van Popta, you have five minutes, please.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley Township—Fraser Heights, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both witnesses for being here at a time that is inconvenient to you. We really do appreciate your participation, particularly given the apparently low interest amongst Canadians overseas in participating in our electoral system.
Dr. Veale, I scribbled down as quickly as I could the statistics that you were giving us about voter turnout amongst overseas Canadians. I think you said that there are five million overseas Canadians and that 72% have eligibility. I don't argue with that number. That's probably reliable. That translates into 3.6 million potential voters, and only 100,000 actually bothered to take any steps at all in getting involved in the election system. You're comparing that to other countries, but I want to make sure, when we're comparing to other countries, that we're comparing apples to apples.
I'm going to turn to a recent Supreme Court of Canada case that one of you referenced. It was the Frank decision of 2019, where the Supreme Court of Canada struck down as unconstitutional that provision in the Canada Elections Act that prohibited Canadians who've been overseas for more than five years from being able to vote. That was considered to be unconstitutional. With the stroke of a pen, there were a million additional voters added to the voters list. It doesn't mean that there are one million overseas Canadians who were engaged in our political system.
Dr. Veale, when you're comparing Canadian statistics to, let's say, American statistics or those of some of the European countries that you mentioned, what are those countries' rules about overseas citizens being engaged in the electoral system? Is it open to everybody, or are there some limitations? Do you know?
Director, Grits Abroad
I wish I could tell you with great precision. Thanks for this question; it's a great one. I don't have a precise answer to give you on what their actual rules are. In reference to what Daniel was sharing before, I have observed that their participation has increased over time—over decades—and we are just having initial conversations about this. It's an idea that's talked about very little.
As far as who exactly can and cannot vote among the diaspora of the countries named, regrettably I'm uncertain. I wish I could say.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley Township—Fraser Heights, BC
Thank you for that.
I'm going to pass the mic over to my colleague, Mr. Calkins, who has a related question.
Thank you.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Ponoka—Didsbury, AB
Most Canadians know that when they file their taxes they have an option to share their residency and allow the CRA to share that information with Elections Canada. I'm assuming that both of you are aware of that?
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Ponoka—Didsbury, AB
That's largely replaced the notion of enumerating people for elections for the last significant number of years.
I can't remember which one of you brought up the notion that the United States of America has a much higher voter turnout from its citizens living abroad. In fairness to the question that my colleague Mr. Van Popta just asked, the United States of America taxes citizenship, not residency. While I'm not going to ask you when we will pay taxes for the last time in Canada, if we're going to be comparing voter participation in countries, perhaps we shouldn't be comparing a country that taxes citizenship versus a country that taxes residency, which is what Canada does.
I guess I'm curious. Is there any other country that does what Canada does that has a better voter turnout? You did reference Portugal. I think you said that Portugal, and I think France as well, have some different systems. I would be curious on your position in choosing to use the United States of America when citizens living abroad actually pay taxes to the United States federal government and Canadians living abroad do not.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Before we answer that, you are at five minutes. I was going to add a minute at the end of the round, so if that works for you, I can add that minute now. I'll ask the witnesses if one of you wants to take the full minute or split it to 30 seconds. I would appreciate it.
Director, Grits Abroad
Yes, I do. I'm happy to take that question.
On apples to apples, I completely agree. I can confirm to you that in France, French citizens are taxed on residency, not on citizenship, just as in Canada, and yet they have this history of representation abroad. As a result, I believe, they have much higher voter participation rates.
At the same time, I think there's an indirect reference to a topic that needs to be brought up about representation without taxation. Is that fair? Does that need to be looked at? It does, absolutely.
The French pull it off. The Americans have higher representation and participation than we do. I think Canada should explore fair models of taxation for non-resident Canadians as well. I think that needs to be considered as part and parcel of the broader conversation.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Thank you so much.
We will turn to Madam Kayabaga. The same offer I gave to the Conservatives applies if you want to use the extra minute. If not, I can apply it to the next Liberal who speaks.
Please go ahead.
Liberal
Arielle Kayabaga Liberal London West, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I would also like to thank our witnesses for being here and making the necessary arrangements to participate in this discussion.
I'm going to pick up on the conversation around taxation and the requirements that are on Canadian citizens to participate in taxes versus Canadians who are part of the diaspora abroad. What would be the logic or the reason to make that investment if the requirements are not the same for all Canadians?
Either one of you can take that question.
As an Individual
Could I jump in with a reply?
Thank you for the question. It's a great one, and this topic is a very important one.
I will preface my remarks by pointing that that in Canada, forever, taxation has occurred when a taxable event occurs. You or I will pay GST or HST when we purchase a good or a service. If we don't purchase a good or a service, we don't pay GST or HST, and so on and so forth. All taxes are tied to a taxable event.
The challenge in making Canada more like the U.S., if that would be the right way to go, is to define what the taxable event is when a Canadian expatriates himself or herself because of their job, because of their family, because of engagement overseas. I think we can assume that this was a good thing without going into too much detail. Define the taxable event that has occurred. It's different, as you have just mentioned, from a Canadian who stays in their home riding or constituency.
Liberal
Arielle Kayabaga Liberal London West, ON
I can rephrase my question this way.
I think it was Mr. Veale who talked about representation without that tax fairness and the taxation on Canadians live abroad. Help me understand how that's a fair system for Canadians who have representation because they're paying the taxes.
As an Individual
I can answer that in two ways.
First of all, we have to respect the SCC decision. It was very clear. Residency has zero bearing on the right to vote.
That decision, as was previously explained by one of the committee members, was an extremely powerful decision. The decision left no doubt in anyone's mind as to how there is a separation between the right to vote and.... As I mentioned in my comments, it's a fundamental element of Canadian citizenship and, I think, of Canadian identity.
Back to your question, though, take my sister. She recently passed away. In her life, she was living in Peterborough, Ontario. She did not have a job. She was handicapped. She received the Ontario disability assistance. She paid no taxes. She had no income. She did not pay taxes to anybody anywhere in Canada, other than the GST if she bought a coffee at Tim Hortons. That's a detail. My point is, she could vote. What is the taxable event that she has to do or would have had to do to demonstrate that she was eligible to vote that I don't...? Do you see what I mean?
Again, this is a classic argument: You have to have skin in the game to be a voter. Hang on for a second. What is it that you want me to pay tax for? You might say, well, all Canadians should pay tax because they're Canadians and they benefit from all levels of government and all the things the governments do for them. That's fantastic, and now you're into the territory of poll tax, and this is nowhere that any of us in the room, I think, want to go.
It's important, as Dr. Veale mentioned. I would definitely refer to his comments. It's a very important question, but it's a difficult one, and I don't have a clear answer for you.
Liberal
Arielle Kayabaga Liberal London West, ON
Yes. Thank you for that.
If I could go back to the question around an attachment to where you cast your vote, you did share that you lived in Ottawa during your last posting but that you're attached to some parts of Toronto Centre. That's where you think that connection is identified, because you have family there, friends there and I imagine even parents. What happens if your parents are no longer in Toronto Centre? How do you cast a vote based off attachment versus where your actual...?
What other tools could we use to determine where you cast your ballot and based off what issues you vote? How many Canadians who are living abroad pay attention to the current issues in Canada, especially when it comes to local, detailed issues? Do Canadians living abroad want to participate only in federal elections or do they also want to participate in much more local issues, such as municipal elections?
Liberal