Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 10th, 2026

[Peter MacLeod]

The first thing I'd want to say is that many of these definitions and much of this work puts, perhaps, undue emphasis on trust. I actually think trust is a bit of a red herring and that, underneath, if we peel back what is a driver of trust, we often encounter concerns about capability. People don't regard government as capable. They don't regard its institutions and agencies as capable, and equally, government institutions don't feel that Canadians are capable.

We need to measure capability and weave this into some of our definitions of civic resilience. However, there are other measures as well—social capital, cohesion, legitimacy of institutions, volunteerism, voter turnout and all the rest.

Again, this is a question of scale more than innovation. It costs in this country, I believe, somewhere in the order of $500 million or $600 million to run a federal election. We are not putting a fraction of this investment into the space between elections to sustain an engaged and vibrant democratic culture.

[The Chair, Liberal, Chris Bittle]

At this point, I have to intervene. We will move on to Madame Normandin.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for joining us. I want to ask a broad question and hear what you all have to say.

The committee has already devoted a great deal of attention to misinformation and transnational repression. You seem to be talking about a different aspect, which concerns engagement and public interest. I would like to hear your comments on the connection between these two factors.

In terms of general engagement, fewer and fewer people are volunteering for community organizations. People are living in a society that seems increasingly individualized. Even if we work on this aspect, it doesn't need to turn into electoral participation. In contrast, when it comes to mistrust or misinformation, a person can be highly misinformed but remain deeply involved in politics.

Which of the two aspects do you think is the most important to work on if we want to improve civic resilience?

[John Beebe]

The connections among foreign interference, disinformation and the health of our communities are very clear. The evidence around this is very clear. When people feel lonely and they do not have friends, family and people whom they feel connected with, they're much more vulnerable to foreign interference and manipulation.

It's common sense. The number of people reporting more loose friends, not necessarily close friends, is down dramatically over the last 10 years. COVID accelerated this. Those are the ones with whom we have informal conversations and connections. We hear different views, because maybe they're not in our bubble of particular political ideas about the world. When we lose those, we naturally lose the things that help us build our immune system against foreign interference. It makes us question some of this disinformation and makes us question some of the things we're seeing.

As Peter was suggesting before, we need to reinvest in this and understand that our investments in our community are related to the health of our democracy.

[Maiwand Rahyab]

To add to that, transnational repression, foreign interference and disinformation are directly impacting civic engagement and the health of Canadian civic space and democratic institutions. Many people who are the direct targets of transnational repression operations are forced to leave their countries because of their civic, human rights and democratic activities.

They are natural activists, civil society leaders and democracy actors. They can contribute significantly when they come here, not only to the countries they came from but to the health of the Canadian ecosystem and Canadian democracy. They can also transfer their experiences here. They are assets and important contributors to our civic ecosystem.

Attacking them, through transnational oppression and disinformation, weakens our civic space ecosystem. It is going to directly discourage participation. It's going to make people more frustrated, isolated and marginalized.

Countering these operations and allowing these people to become more engaged, involved and included in the Canadian civic space not only helps and protects them but also helps to enrich our own civic and democratic systems in Canada.

[Peter MacLeod]

I'll make three quick points.

First, Canada survived the 2008 financial crisis because we had superior financial regulations. Today, we do not sufficiently regulate our digital information space. It has become compromised. Without an independent digital regulator, the government cannot sufficiently protect Canadians.

Second, the nature of volunteerism has changed. It doesn't look like people are belonging to the local rotary club and attending a meeting every Wednesday afternoon. When the government activated the groups of five program 10 years ago with the encouragement of the Lifeline Syria Fund, 132,000 Canadians sprang into action to give 37,000 Syrian families a new start on life here.

Those were Canadians who were raising money, getting people good jobs and getting them into housing. A decade later, the Syrian Canadians who were sponsored by long-time Canadians have integrated more successfully into our society. The nature of volunteerism has changed. It's intense, episodic and high-impact. We have to tap into the problem-solving capacity of Canadians.

Lastly, political parties—I'm sorry—are culpable too. It's because too much engagement has been replaced by top-down management and communication. It makes people cynical.

[The Chair, Liberal, Chris Bittle]

Next, we have Mr. Calkins for five minutes, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Ponoka—Didsbury, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to start off with you, Mr. Beebe. In your opening remarks, you talked about the under 30 crowd being the least engaged.

When I was a young man, the notion that I would never own a home was.... We never even talked about these things. Fast-forward to now, and my kids are in their twenties and well educated. They have the same common problems as do many young people across Canada. I live in a part of the country in which inflation and home costs are not even remotely as severe as they have been in some of our larger urban centres in eastern Canada and along the west coast.

Given this fact, it all boils down to a sense of hope. Right now, I don't think there's a strong sense of hope, because of some of the decisions that have been made.

Is this a factor in any of your discussions, thoughts or studies? The question's for everybody, but I'll start with you, Mr. Beebe.

[John Beebe]

I am not an expert on the elements of what drives hope, but I certainly hear the exact same thing. My kids are in the same boat. They're feeling despondent about the rise in housing prices and—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Ponoka—Didsbury, AB]

How do you deal with social cohesion—

[John Beebe]

Right—

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Ponoka—Didsbury, AB]

—when your population is despondent?

[John Beebe]

It's the same way we always respond in times of crisis or times of challenge. It's to find and create opportunities for people to come together, because in those moments, people are looking even more for their sense of community and more for people to bond with. When you're feeling challenged, you're looking for hope. People would much rather be in a place of hope.

I think you're right. These realities are crushing for our young people today, but I think that when they're in this situation, they want to find other people to connect with, and we have to build this and provide people a chance to come together and talk about it. Even talking about it helps them feel more connected, and there's more of a sense that they're not in this by themselves.

[Maiwand Rahyab]

On the sense of hope, democracies' institutions—including governments, civil society and businesses—all need to deliver. That's important. It's one piece that can contribute to creating this sense of hope, but also, there are different sources for hope.

One is, of course, as you know, the economy, and governments delivering and democracies delivering, but it's also about agency. When people feel that they have agency, that they are able to shape the conversation, the politics and policies of the institutions of democracy, it gives them hope. It also comes from community organizations and civil society groups working hard to make a better situation for all Canadians.

Hope is critical for protecting our democracy, but there is not one source of hope: There are multiple sources, and they all need to work collectively to bring hope.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Ponoka—Didsbury, AB]

When you're talking about agency—I didn't get a chance to go to Mr. MacLeod yet, but maybe he can chime in on this—one in four jobs in Canada right now is a government job. We've never had more government than we have right now. We've never had larger federal budgets and provincial budgets than we have right now.

How does this help people with their sense of agency? It seems to me that when you expect the government to do more for you, it doesn't deliver the same result.

Mr. Beebe, you came here asking for more money from the taxpayers in order to create a better outcome for people. We've never spent more; we've never had more government workers, and we've never had worse outcomes for the generation we're talking about.

If you're going to talk about agency, that's giving people control over their lives and control of the decisions they make and having positive outcomes. How do you see more government doing what more government hasn't been able to do for the last 10 years?

[The Chair, Liberal, Chris Bittle]

You have about 30 seconds.

[John Beebe]

I would quickly say that I don't see this being about more government. I see it being about investments in our community organizations that matter to us, that work in our communities and have the closest connection. However, I certainly understand your concerns about how we can make sure people have a sense of agency. Exploring this is key to any solution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Chris Bittle]

Thank you so much.

We'll now go to Mr. Wilkinson for five minutes, please.

[Jonathan Wilkinson, Liberal, North Vancouver—Capilano, BC]

I'm going to be a bit provocative, maybe. I would like each of the witnesses to respond.

Thank you for coming.

There are a number of trends in society making—in my mind, anyway—civic resilience more challenging. Certainly, social media is one of those. We are all increasingly living in silos.

It's also true that we are a more urbanized society. I grew up in Saskatchewan, and there are many communities there where the sense of community is very strong. However, I live in Vancouver, and I would tell you most folks don't even know who their neighbours are. It's an increasingly atomized society. Couple this with the fact that, for better or for worse, churchgoing attendance has declined. This was one of the fundamental sources of community; people got together and actually had conversations.

The macro level is quite challenging.

I would also say that with respect to trying to encourage engagement, every one of the MPs in this room tries to do various kinds of things to encourage grassroots participation, whether it's through town halls or a range of things. I'd be shocked if it's different for any of the other MPs. The same faces come to those engagements every time. It's a tiny fraction of the citizens who live in each of our ridings.

With mechanisms like a citizens' assembly—I think somebody mentioned that another country had taken lessons from us—our experience with a citizens' assembly in British Columbia was around electoral reform, and it didn't drive higher voter turnout. It didn't succeed.

What I would be really interested in hearing about from you guys is not the high-level conversation but what specific things you would recommend that we do to try to turn some of these things around. How can they be scalable? I heard one of you mention Katimavik. It's a great program, but it touches a tiny number of people.

What specific things would you recommend, and how do you ensure that they can be done at scale?

[John Beebe]

I can respond.

You've nailed the challenge. One specific thing that we do is not trying to host events and invite people to them. We try to figure out ways to join tables that already exist. This is why we're partnering with community organizations. It's why we're doing programs like cook and learn, rec leagues and programs in other places where people are coming together already. That's one.

One very specific thing, when you look at Elections Canada and other election management bodies, is that they're increasingly hiring staff called community relations officers ahead of an election. Their job is to reach out to trusted community organizations and make sure that they have accurate information about where, when and ways to vote. It's not to encourage people, but to give people information by going where they already have programming going on.

You're exactly right. We have the same experience. When we invite people to come out and talk about democracy, we get our friends and allies. We love them, but they're not the new people building new communities.

I would encourage you to try the same thing. I'm sure you do. Join people where they are. Sit down with those people who are at the table and listen to what they have to say about the issues at the top of their minds. This will be a groundbreaking experience.

We start by asking people the question, “What matters to you?” Many times, people say, “No one's ever asked me that.”

[Maiwand Rahyab]

One example for us, which we are launching next year, is the Canada civic action week. We are trying to make democracy and civic engagement more accessible and more understandable for the public by organizing music and cultural events, book launches, conferences and volunteering events in which communities themselves drive civic activities in their communities in a one-week period throughout the country.

It creates a narrative for how important civic engagement and democracy are. It also creates a sense of belonging throughout the whole of the country during one week through what they do, not through what we ask them to do. It's how they integrate civic engagement and democracy conversation: art, music, volunteering, community engagement and university lectures. All of this can contribute to creating a common, shared sense of engagement among Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, Chris Bittle]

Thank you so much. I have to cut it off there.

As a reminder to members, I believe Mr. MacLeod has to leave us at 12:45, if you're looking to direct your questions to him.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I do many classroom visits. I start by asking students how much they like politics, on a scale of one to 10. Usually, the answer is zero or one.

I then get them debating by asking them whether we should regulate abortion, ban guns and give more money to health care or education. I also ask them what they think about the environment. I have them debate for an hour. Afterwards, I tell them that they have engaged in politics.

Is the issue that people aren't interested in politics, or that they don't make enough of a connection between politics with a capital P and political institutions?

[John Beebe]

I'm happy to jump in on that. I'm a former high school teacher. I taught high school for 13 years, and I love working with young people.

We have the exact same experience. When you ask them if they are interested in politics, it's zero to one. Are they interested in power? It's 10. They understand power. They don't necessarily connect what you do to power. This is why we talk about agency and power and voting as a form of power. I ask people what other forms of power they have, and young people especially don't have many other forms of power. They like the idea of voting as a form of power. It works much better as a form of power when you do it collectively. It's not just an individual act. I would think that framing is part of it.

We also talk about democracy. Young people have a very mixed relationship with democracy, but when questioned about it, they are some of the most hopeful people about the potential of democracy. When we look at it this way, we can tap into their desire for agency and their desire to have a voice. They get very excited and motivated.

Right now, I'm working with a group of people from the Forum for Young Canadians, who are here this week. I help lead the program. It's totally inspiring to spend time with these young people from all across Canada. It makes me very hopeful about the future of Canada. They are people who understand what power means and what agency means for them.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Does anyone want to chime in?