Evidence of meeting #31 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hybrid.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley Township—Fraser Heights, BC
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being here.
I'm not sure who this question goes to. It's just to the table.
As part of your budgeting and assessment processes, have you had an opportunity to measure the incremental cost of hybrid parliamentary operations? I'm looking at a report from the parliamentary budget office from five years ago. It's completely out of date now. This was when we were in the heart of a pandemic and a hybrid Parliament was created so that Parliament could keep on functioning.
There was a recurring operational cost, according to that report, of $4.6 million. That included the Senate. I understand that the Senate doesn't have hybrid sittings now, but there were substantial savings, primarily credited to members of Parliament and senators not travelling and just staying at home. The net savings were $6 million.
As I said, that's completely out of date now. My question is whether we track the cost of hybrid Parliament now that we could probably function without it.
I'm not sure who that goes to.
Clerk of the House of Commons
Maybe I'll start, and then I'll hand it off to my colleague Stéphan.
For sure, there is a cost to continuing with a hybrid Parliament. Whether one person uses it or multiple people use it, basically the same cost is involved.
We can provide some numbers without telling tales out of school. It was recently looked at by the subcommittee of the board that is looking at our strategic internal assessment of operations to see whether there could be any efficiencies found if hybrid were done differently.
I'll turn it over to Stéphan.
Stéphan Aubé Chief Executive Administrator, House of Commons
For 2026-27, we're projecting the cost to be around $7.4 million for hybrid proceedings. That's the incremental cost to our budget for offering the service.
It started in the range of $5 million in 2023, as you identified. We're now up to $7.4 million, based on a decision of the board to make sure that we can support an increase in committee meetings over pre-pandemic committee meetings. That's why it went to that level.
We continuously make an effort to review and assess whether there are opportunities, as the clerk mentioned. We've been going through review exercises, and that's one of the services we were asked to review. We are in the process of discussing whether there are potential opportunities for efficiencies.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley Township—Fraser Heights, BC
Is anybody assessing how many members of Parliament actually make use of hybrid Parliament? I know it's sometimes used at the close of the 10-minute electronic voting, and the Speaker knows this. He always asks anybody who had any trouble to please raise their hand. Every once in a while, somebody online says that they had trouble. It's useful for that, but if that's all hybrid Parliament is being used for, surely we can find a more efficient and cost-effective way of solving that minor problem.
Clerk of the House of Commons
There are maybe two components to that.
One is members' utilization. Either in committee or in the chamber, members still have the option of participating virtually. Also, in terms of committees, there are witnesses. Largely, the procedures that are in place to onboard a witness before a committee meeting are the same as those that occur for any members who are participating. A lot of the resources and costs associated with hybrid proceedings are as much for the witnesses as they are for members participating.
I don't know if Stéphan or Ben have anything to add.
Chief Executive Administrator, House of Commons
We also use hybrid as a mechanism of resilience for electronic voting.
As you know, in the chamber, if a member has issues with the application, we will use hybrid to ensure we can guarantee that the member is the person who voted, so this service is now also embedded into the process in the chamber.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley Township—Fraser Heights, BC
I understand the difference. In committees, hybrid meetings are probably very effective—certainly for our witnesses, as Ms. Normandin is able to participate with us today—but the option for witnesses to participate online was available even before the pandemic. That's my understanding. Do we really need a whole hybrid infrastructure just for that?
Clerk of the House of Commons
That's almost a political question for the members of the House to decide. It was decided to continue hybrid.
You're absolutely right that in the past, before the pandemic, witnesses could appear virtually. For the most part, they had to go to specific centres in Canada to do so, whereas now, as long as they have a proper Internet connection and proper equipment, they can participate from pretty well anywhere. In the past, there were limitations in terms of how many committees could hear witnesses virtually, whereas now, any sitting committee can avail itself of that option. All of that takes resources.
Absolutely, if there were a decision to curtail that in some manner, it would have an impact on resources, but again, that's more of a political question.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Thank you so much.
We'll now go to Ms. Vandenbeld for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
On that note, I've just come back from a surgery, and I was able to avail myself of participating in hybrid form, so I think it's very useful.
I have a question. About two years ago, in May 2024, the Sergeant-at-Arms went public and said that there had been an 800% increase in harassment against members of Parliament, both online and physically. At the time, he said that there weren't enough resources to monitor and deal with that. I wonder if you can tell us what has happened in the interim in these two years.
Also, have you done a gender-based analysis-plus on the nature of those threats? Is there gender-disaggregated data on the threats against male and female MPs and those with different identities?
Clerk of the House of Commons
Maybe I'll start, Ms. Vandenbeld, and then hand it off to Paul, who's our deputy sergeant-at-arms. Unfortunately, the Sergeant-at-Arms himself couldn't make it here today.
As mentioned, there was a request made to the Board of Internal Economy a bit earlier this year for a significant increase in resources. Some of that was specifically to address the issues that you just raised.
Paul, you might have some details as to the breakdown and what's being done specifically on that front.
Paul Mellon Senior Officer, Risk Management and Investigations, Corporate Security Operations, House of Commons
We've had an increase in resources, not just with our open-source intelligence folks but also with our assistant sergeant-at-arms, all of whom are investigators, to manage not just the increase in threatening behaviour but also the increase in nuisance, malicious and misogynistic types of online correspondence.
In that regard, we have a very robust records management system whereby we correlate every incident and file. We can differentiate between different categories as to whether they're misogynistic, etc. We can extract that information if we want.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
It would be interesting for the committee to see that difference, particularly on gender. If it's happening more to female MPs, it would be very interesting to know that.
Senior Officer, Risk Management and Investigations, Corporate Security Operations, House of Commons
We can get that for you.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I also noted that two years ago, the Government of Canada provided $50 million to the Ottawa police specifically for a dedicated presence on the Hill, and we've actually seen that. In the spring economic update this week, there's also an additional extension of $3 million a year to cover protests and events, because the precinct is here in the city of Ottawa. As a local MP, I'm very interested in how that's going, how that's interacting.
I know that there are already layered and blended security measures between the RCMP, the Ottawa police and the PPS. Could you give us an idea of whether or not the extra $50 million that was provided is helping?
Director, Parliamentary Protective Service
That's an interesting question.
We have been working very closely with the new what they call Ottawa parliamentary district. It's evolved from a very small unit and is building up to a unit that has greater coverage every day.
We work every day...in terms of information sharing. They join us every morning for our general briefings. We exchange radio communications. We have group chats. They are involved in cross-training. They sit at the table with us for our exercises. They are more than just colleagues now. They're very well integrated with us, and we work and share information on a daily and regular basis.
I can tell you that, because of that, the security in and around the precinct campus is better. Between PPS having a more forward-facing approach and working in a very close manner with Ottawa police and the RCMP, we feel that the service is better to parliamentarians, for sure.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
I'm sorry to interrupt. These are very sensitive microphones. You don't have to get close.
Please continue.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
I have just returned to this committee. I was on it from 2015 to 2017. At that time, it was very new that the RCMP was taking over PPS security. At that time, there was some concern that there was direct reporting from RCMP officers to the head of the RCMP and therefore to the executive branch, the government. There was concern about the independence of the Parliamentary Protective Service. I wonder if you can give a bit of an update on how that's gone in the last 10 years.
Director, Parliamentary Protective Service
I can assure you that I'm the last man standing in terms of the RCMP.
Of course, in the beginning when PPS was created, the RCMP had a significant role in creating this new unit, creating policies, doing training and all of that. Over time, the RCMP's footprint has diminished.
From a reporting—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
I have to cut you off there. I apologize. We will have lots more time for questions.
We'll now turn to Madame Normandin.
Since we're going for an hour and a half, you have five minutes, please.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you very much.
I, too, would like to continue on the topic of the physical safety of parliamentarians and incidents targeting elected officials. I understand that last year, a report was published in the media mentioning 1,300 incidents against parliamentarians or officials in 2022. There was an increase in 2023, with 2,600 incidents, and we were heading toward 3,500 incidents in 2024.
I would like to hear your opinion on this trend. Do you anticipate a further increase in the number of incidents involving elected officials in the 2025‑26 period?
I would also like to know how these statistics are compiled. Who is responsible for receiving the information, compiling it, and updating the statistics? Is there a specific department? Is it the RCMP or the Parliamentary Protective Service that maintains these statistics? I’m curious.
Senior Officer, Risk Management and Investigations, Corporate Security Operations, House of Commons
Regarding the last part of your question, statistics on threats and cases involving members of Parliament are compiled by the Office of the Sergeant-at-Arms and Institutional Security. We work closely with the RCMP and our security partners, and we maintain a comprehensive record of all cases involving members of Parliament.
So, it is really our office, working with the RCMP, the Parliamentary Protective Service, and all its other partners, that maintains these statistics.
Regarding the first part of your question, because there was a recent election, it appears that the number of threat-related cases has decreased slightly. We’ve reached a plateau, but it wouldn’t take much for it to go back up. The number of incidents is at the same level as in 2024. In 2025, it dropped just a little bit and has remained fairly stable.