Evidence of meeting #38 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was regime.
A video is available from Parliament.
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I have no specific insights on the matter.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
You are the national counter foreign interference coordinator. This is a big enough issue that it clearly falls, in broad terms, within your purview and areas of responsibility.
I would note that 10 Hong Kong diaspora organizations have sent an open letter to Mark Carney expressing deep fear and anxiety about this agreement. In essence, they are concerned that Beijing will use this agreement to target political opponents of the regime in Canada under the guise of law enforcement.
What assurances are there? What safeguards are in place to ensure that won't happen and to ensure that the sharing of information on Canadian citizens and PRs will not be passed on to the Beijing dictatorship?
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Canada's position on transnational repression, the protection of people in Canada and national security has not changed at all. We will continue to defend the rights of Canadians to express their views and opinions and to be protected against transnational repression.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
I asked you what measures and safeguards are in place under the agreement.
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I'm not in a position to discuss the agreement.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Are there any measures or safeguards in place to ensure that the agreement does not in any way facilitate the Beijing regime and their well-documented and extensive transnational repression activities in Canada?
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I'm not in a position to comment on the agreement itself. It's not in my purview.
What I can say is that nothing has changed in regard to Canada's position in terms of protecting people in Canada against transnational repression, and that—
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
We know that the Beijing regime operates illegal police stations to harass and intimidate Chinese Canadians, including even forced repatriation.
According to a recent report of the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, Chinese police have gone so far as to pay agents to locate and track Canadians critical of the Beijing dictatorship. This is happening in Canada, and you can't identify any safeguards with respect to this law enforcement co-operation agreement with a regime that the Prime Minister only a year ago quite correctly called Canada's biggest security threat.
Beijing violated a previous MOU between the Canadian government and Beijing on law enforcement co-operation. That included coercing 25 Canadians to return to the PRC as part of Operation Fox Hunt.
Given Beijing's track record, on what basis should Canadians have any confidence that Beijing will not abuse this latest law enforcement co-operation agreement?
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
As I said, nothing has changed in terms of Canada's position and stance towards protecting Canadians against transnational repression.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Something has changed. A secret law enforcement agreement has been entered into with Beijing's Ministry of Public Security, which is the very same ministry responsible for transnational repression activities and operating illegal police stations in Canada. That agreement has been kept hidden from Canadians, so yes, something has changed. Something big has changed.
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I have no specific insights to provide.
Conservative
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
It's not within my purview to respond to this.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
We all know the reason for the lack of transparency. The Beijing dictatorship told the Prime Minister not to make the agreement public. Isn't that right?
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I have no specific insights on this matter.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Mr. Chair, given the extensive track record of the Beijing regime to engage in foreign interference and transnational repression activities, it's completely unacceptable that we see this lack of transparency. On top of that, two years after a foreign influence registry received royal assent, we don't have a commissioner in place, don't have regulations in place, don't have an office fully open, don't have staff fully hired, and we have no timeline for when it is going to be up and running.
What we see time and again from these Liberals is that they simply don't take foreign interference seriously, particularly when it emanates from the Beijing dictatorship, with which the Prime Minister has so proudly heralded Canada's having a new strategic partnership—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
I'm going to have to cut you off, Mr. Cooper. We're over six minutes.
We will turn to Madam Brière.
You have the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Aubertin‑Giguère, thank you for being with us today.
Since we've talked about a lot of timeline-related issues, I'd like to ask you a first question about exemptions.
The Foreign Influence Transparency and Accountability Act has a limited number of exemptions, but it's not an exhaustive list. The act also lacks specifics on what should be included in the foreign agent registry. The act also provides that amendments can be made by regulation. What is the advantage of proceeding in this way, through regulations?
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
The exemptions that were really very clear from the outset were, for example, foreign diplomats and the arrangements to which the Crown is a party. There were already very well-established exemptions that we could include in the act.
However, adding exemptions through regulations makes more sense. It allows us to evolve more quickly. It allows us to adapt to a changing situation. It's easier to make a regulatory change than a legislative change. This is also true when it comes to the information that must be given to the commissioner and that will be made public by the registry. It's more flexible to specify it by regulation than in the act.
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Then people are expected to consult the website and the registry to always be up to date on the exemptions granted and the details for agents of influence.
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Yes, of course, but any new exemptions will have to be in the regulations. I won't say it's slow, but I would say that the regulatory process is very procedural. There's no doubt about that.
In addition, the website will be constantly updated to indicate what the regulatory changes are. Interpretation bulletins and reference and education materials will also be found on the website. It will constantly be updated, also depending on the questions we receive and the questions the public has about the registry or the regime in general.
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Now, there are offences that are prosecuted by two types of penalty: by indictment and by summary conviction. Do you know which violations will be prosecuted by indictment and which ones will be prosecuted by summary conviction?
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
To be a bit more technical, there are four types of offences defined in the act: not registering an arrangement, not updating an arrangement, hiding information and obstruction.
Administrative monetary penalties can be imposed for the first three types, but for obstruction, it just becomes an offence. However, a criminal offence can be established for all four types. In that instance, the case is referred to the RCMP and it will be up to the prosecutor and the police to determine exactly whether the offence will be punishable by summary conviction or otherwise. It will be up to the Crown and the police to define it at that stage.
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
The same is true for administrative monetary penalties as opposed to prison sentences.
Assistant Deputy Minister, National and Cyber Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
The commissioner will have the discretion to determine, depending on the nature of the facts related to the offence, whether it is preferable to impose administrative monetary penalties or to refer the matter to the RCMP, because there can be slightly more serious misconduct and offences. It will be defined based on the facts of the case.
The factors taken into account by the commissioner in establishing the administrative monetary penalties will appear in the regulations that will be released shortly.