Evidence of meeting #40 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was registry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
You're right at six minutes. Thank you so much.
We will turn to Ms. Vandenbeld, please, for six minutes.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Thank you very much.
First of all, congratulations on your appointment. I don't think we have to tell you how important the role is to decision-makers, to keeping Canadians safe and to transparency.
You of course mentioned that you're communicating with people who may need to register. I think there may be some misunderstanding out there about what kinds of entities or persons need to register in this registry. It's not necessarily nefarious actors.
Could you talk to us a bit about the types of people who would register and how you're reaching out to them to make sure they understand their requirements?
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
While the act is quite broad, it applies to influence activities across all governments in Canada right now: municipal, federal, provincial and territorial. It is intended to also apply to indigenous governments. That has yet to be brought into effect.
It's also quite narrow in terms of the specific activities. An individual organization has to have an arrangement with a foreign principal. That arrangement has to undertake some influence activities, which could include communicating with a public office holder, communicating to the public or providing items of value. Also, then, they have to be targeted to a Canadian political or government process, so that needs to be a specific process, not kind of broadly.
Really, it's been trying to reach out to any sector that may have a requirement to register, whether that's the legal sector or the industrial sector. In academia, there are a lot of partnerships. It's also with non-governmental organizations that have agreements with other countries.
It's really to ensure that they know what the specific requirements are that would trigger a registration. There are a lot of exchanges that happen that do not require registration. It's only if the influence activities are done in association with or under the direction of a foreign principal and it's targeting a specific governmental or political process.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
We know that in some countries that are leaning more toward authoritarianism, they use laws that they call “foreign registries”, but in fact, these are laws that attempt to silence civil society groups. If there's, for instance, international development funding or funding to NGOs or organizations that are working toward human rights or democracy, they're calling these foreign agents just because they get foreign funding. This is a completely different thing from what this registry is.
If somebody is working in a non-profit sector to fight for human rights and they happen to get funding from another government overseas, that entity would not be subject to the regulation here.
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
The law is intended as a transparency mechanism. It's intended as a mechanism whereby, if the criteria that I've already highlighted are met, registration would be required. I would view it as akin to the lobbying registry in terms of the activities that meet the specific requirements of my legislation.
It's not intended to restrict people's activities. Being on the registry should be seen as a positive thing for someone who's interested and wanting to act in accordance with the law and wanting to be transparent about their activities. It's not meant to be seen as someone has done something wrong or someone is doing activities that are not considered acceptable.
On the flip side, I will say that if a registration should have taken place and it hasn't taken place and we need to do a compliance activity, then that will be highlighting where registration should have happened but didn't.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
Do you have teeth? What kinds of tools do you have if there is non-compliance?
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
I have a range of monetary penalties that I can administer myself, as well as what I'll call more facilitation-type tools. I can do compliance agreements. I can do compliance letters to people. The initial focus is really on facilitating that compliance, because it's a brand new model. There are brand new requirements, and I would rather work with people to facilitate compliance.
If required, however, there are teeth in the legislation. I have a range of penalties—between $250 and $1 million—that can be administered monetarily. There's also a provision for, perhaps, more serious cases. I can refer those instances to the RCMP, under the law. The RCMP would investigate those. This would be carried out as a criminal investigation, and there would be penalties—potentially jail time on conviction or a penalty of $5 million.
Liberal
Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON
At this stage, most of your work, I would imagine, is to alert people who may need to comply and to try to make sure they are within the requirements. There's probably not a lot of that other side of it, at the moment.
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
Up until the deadline on October 3, and certainly for pre-existing arrangements, everybody was onside. The deadline had not passed. Now that the deadline has passed, we're in a better position to examine the registrations we've received and to think about where, perhaps, we should have received a registration and didn't.
The big focus, and it's critically important for me, is on people being aware of the rules. It's that people are aware of the registry, that they're aware of the types of activities that require registration if undertaken, that they know how to register on the list and know how to contact the office if they have questions.
Liberal
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Boegman, for being here. We really appreciate it.
I would like to continue in the same vein as Ms. Vandenbeld, but perhaps by addressing the issues a little differently.
I would like to talk about the exclusions set out in section 3 of the act. On the list, there is indeed a fairly large number of entities whose arrangements are not subject to a registration requirement.
Ultimately, I wonder whom it applies to once all the exceptions have been removed. Do we not risk missing some blind spots by excluding all members of Parliament and the legislatures of all provinces and territories, public administrations, Crown corporations and organizations?
Ultimately, isn't everyone excluded from the act's application?
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
Thank you for the question.
The act states that there are a few exclusions because in a functioning government, activities are already transparent. If there is a mission to another country to potentially set up a plant, share information or make other arrangements, it's already transparent. There is no need to register in that case. In addition, when diplomatic representatives act within the scope of their diplomatic duties, and do so transparently, there is no need for them to register.
However, for all other situations that are not part of the government's responsibilities and operations, there is an obligation to register. Registration is required if there is an arrangement with a foreign principal, if there are influence activities and if a government or political process is targeted.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
I understand the idea of not covering what falls under normal, official relationships, but isn't there a risk that normal, official relationships will be used to conceal influence activity and exclude people from the registry's application?
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
Yes, that could happen. One of my responsibilities is to look at how the act has been implemented. If I find situations or opportunities to improve the act to close any gaps, I can report to Parliament with recommendations for the future.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
You actually made a good segue into my next question, which concerns the report to Parliament or the report to a committee.
Section 31 provides that a committee must examine the act following a general election. The last one was in April 2025, but section 31 was not yet in force.
Do I understand correctly that only after the next general election would there be a review, potentially by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, of the legislation on the registry?
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
I think so. It will be after the next election. However, I have an opportunity to submit a report to Parliament before that if I find things that I think would be important for parliamentarians to see.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Given that the act took two years to come into force and there were a lot of delays, wouldn't it be appropriate for us to take the initiative to summon you sooner than the act provides to testify on the registry's implementation and effectiveness?
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
Yes, maybe. That said, I was not the commissioner before August 4. I had a contract with Public Safety Canada to help find office employees, but I had no official authority before that.
Bloc
Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
I would like to follow up on a question from Mr. Cooper about the fact that there are few entries on the registry at the moment. At our last meeting, you told me that that you were agnostic in your way of assessing different countries or sources of influence.
Do you think this approach is still appropriate, given the low registration rate?
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
Yes, I think it's a good approach. As I said, the act and its application cover a wide range of activities and sectors, but it's specific. If an activity meets all three conditions, meaning that there is an arrangement, that it concerns influence activities and that a political process is targeted, registration is required.
However, it's important to look at this for all processes in the provinces and territories, and also for federal processes.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle
Thank you so much.
We'll turn to Mr. Cooper for five minutes, please.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Boegman, in answer to a question I asked in the previous round, you stated that you estimate that 1,000 persons and entities are subject to registration. I would note that Public Safety's analysis for the draft regulations estimated that 2,422 persons and entities would be subject to registration, including 872 individuals and 1,550 businesses. Public Safety estimated 2,422. You've said 1,000. Why is there a difference?
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
I stand corrected. The Public Safety numbers were the basis on which we were going.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
You weren't even in the ballpark. You said 1,000 out of 2,400. You didn't get the numbers even close.
Foreign Influence Transparency Commissioner, Office of the Foreign Influence Commissioner of Canada
I stand corrected.