Evidence of meeting #5 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Loewen  Harold Tanner Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, Cornell University, As an Individual
Szuchewycz  Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee
Sauvé  Former M.P., LaSalle-Émard-Verdun, As an Individual
Lori Turnbull  Professor, Faculty of Management, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), the committee is meeting in public on the actions of the longest ballot committee in recent Canadian elections.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You will also notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the members. All comments should be addressed through the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

Just as a housekeeping note, the Subcommittee on Private Members’ Business is meeting in the room at 1:15, so I will be fairly strict on our ending this meeting at one o'clock.

I would like to welcome our witnesses for today’s first panel. As an individual, we have Peter Loewen, Harold Tanner Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences at Cornell University, by video conference; and Mr. Tomas Szuchewycz, an official agent for the longest ballot committee.

Each witness will have five minutes to deliver opening remarks. Then we'll proceed to questions and answers.

Mr. Loewen, you have five minutes, please.

Peter Loewen Harold Tanner Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, Cornell University, As an Individual

Thank you very much to the committee for this invitation. I've appeared before this committee half a dozen times now, I believe, over a 20-year period. It has always been an honour to do so.

I am pleased today to share with you my thoughts on the question of long ballots. I understand the issue in the following way. It’s relatively easy to get one’s name on the ballot in Canada. Because of this, a group of Canadians who object to our electoral system decided they would demonstrate their dissatisfaction with our form of electoral democracy by adding as many people as possible to ballots in high-profile races.

In the submission by that group today, they appeal to a slightly more general and unobjectionable point—that MPs should not write their own rules of election. That point has merits, and I will return to it. But their larger point is that Canada’s electoral system should be reformed, and they’ll keep making ballots longer until Canadians get the message.

Our electoral system has not changed, but voters in a small number of constituencies have been forced to search for competitive, sincere candidates among dozens or hundreds of names of insincere candidates.

Should members of Parliament be changing the Canada Elections Act to respond to this? Let me make two arguments on why you should and two on why you should not, and then say something quickly about the history of monkey business on our ballots.

Why should you make it harder for names to enter our ballot? First, these long ballot efforts clearly, in practice, violate the spirit of our competitive elections. Elections should be contested between people with real intentions of entering Parliament, who have mustered some minimum level of local support through signatures—unique signatures—and who are ready to actively compete against others. The ballot is much more than a petition, so it should require more than shenanigans to get on it.

Second, the management of our elections is highly localized. It depends on volunteers and minimally paid part-time workers to carry out manning polling stations, assisting voters in understanding the ballot and then counting votes. The smooth conduct of elections and the rapid counting of constituency races is what Canadians expect. Excessively long ballots, however funny they might be, make it harder for voters to cast a vote and harder for local servants of our democracy to count ballots. Canada's reputation of well-run elections is hard-earned and well deserved. It’s not funny to monkey with this. For these reasons, making it harder for unserious candidates to get on a ballot is a good idea.

What are the arguments against changing these rules? First, you are in an interesting conflict of interest, in that you can all benefit as incumbents from certain rule changes. Thus, changes to electoral rules should be done carefully and transparently, and with as much consensus and outside validation as possible. Second, the effects of these long ballots are probably quite small, so this may not be a high-priority issue. If you have chosen to deal with it, so be it. Just do so transparently, respecting the public’s concerns about a conflict of interest.

One final point is that Canada has a history of monkey business on ballots—some funny, some not. In its heyday, the Rhinoceros Party, you might recall, used to field a lot of candidates and do funny things. They had a platform plank of an angled bike path across the country so that one could coast from coast to coast—very good. It was very funny. There are less funny examples. As Louis Massicotte once told me, in Quebec, before the introduction of party names on ballots, troublemakers would occasionally run a candidate who shared a name with a serious candidate. This was meant to confuse voters. That was less funny.

This long ballot business is less funny. It’s the handiwork of self-proclaimed democratic reformers who have lost referendum after referendum, sometimes after citizens' assemblies and sometimes not, and who recently lost another court case affirming the constitutionality of our electoral system. Time and again, Canadians have indicated that they don’t want what they’re selling, so you might find it less than funny that they want free rein to gum up election ballots.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Thank you so much.

We'll turn to Mr. Szuchewycz for five minutes.

Tomas Szuchewycz Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Members of PROC, given your mandate of reviewing both election law and conflicts of interest, it is extremely wise of you to take the time to investigate what the longest ballot committee is all about.

If there is one thing I want you to take away from my appearance today, it's that democracy is best managed with strict, non-partisan impartiality.

While you consider that, Mr. Chair, I'd like to give a huge thank you to all the candidates who put their names forward to run in long ballots, and I want to give a huge thank you to all the voters who signed their names hundreds of times in support of those candidates and in support of electoral reform. Because of them, this protest has been successful beyond anything I honestly could ever have imagined. Now clearly we have the attention of politicians. I have been invited to Parliament today because they hear our message, our shared desire for improving democracy.

I want to start with praise for two Canadian institutions. Elections Canada is admired for its professionalism and independence. We voters know that we are able to cast our votes, that everyone running the polling station is impartial and that our votes will be counted fairly. Elections Canada is one of the most trusted government institutions in our nation, and that trust is deserved. Elections Canada is trusted precisely because it is non-partisan and independent.

The same is true of our electoral boundaries commissions. In many places around the world, politicians decide their own districts, and what do they do? They gerrymander maps to try to lock in their own power. Canada, wisely, does not tolerate that. Instead, boundary drawing is the responsibility of independent commissions operating at arm's length from Parliament.

Here is the problem. While ballot counting and boundary drawing are correctly protected from political interference, the rules of our elections are not. The laws that govern how parties are regulated, how ballots are designed, who is even allowed to put their name forward as a candidate and how votes get translated into seats are laws that are still written and modified by you, MPs, with your partisan interests and your careers depending on the outcome of each election. This is a textbook conflict of interest, obviously.

The longest ballot committee advocates that you, MPs, recuse yourselves from writing the rules of your own elections. We already know that the model of non-partisan independence works. Canadians would be well served by a permanent, independent, non-partisan body to oversee the full framework of election law.

This reform would also protect you as MPs. When you propose changes to election law, you are often met with suspicion, and rightly so. Even good reforms can be dismissed as self-serving when they are written by people who are perceived to benefit from the changes. By handing responsibility to an independent, non-partisan body, voters could finally trust that the laws were written to serve the best interests of Canadians, rather than to serve the best interests of the ruling parties.

The longest ballot committee is urging MPs to do the right thing, recuse themselves from this blatant conflict of interest and establish a permanent, independent, non-partisan body to oversee the full framework of election law.

Thanks.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Thank you so much.

Thank you to both witnesses for being under the five-minute allotment.

Mr. Cooper, I'll turn to you for six minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Szuchewycz, you have operated as a key organizer for the longest ballot committee and served as the official agent for many of the candidates affiliated with the longest ballot committee. Is that correct?

11:05 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

That is correct.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

Your brother, Kieran Szuchewycz, is also an organizer with the longest ballot committee. Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

That's correct.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

I want to ask you some questions about the recruitment of candidates and the collection of nomination signatures for the longest ballot committee.

When you and other organizers from the longest ballot committee were collecting signatures, at times electors would have been presented with multiple nomination forms to sign simultaneously.

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

That's correct.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

Okay.

As you went about collecting signatures and recruiting candidates, the longest ballot committee told prospective candidates that they didn't have to worry about collecting signatures, because the longest ballot committee had already collected the 100 or more signatures needed for them to get onto the ballot.

Isn't that true?

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

No, that's not true. You have that a little bit backwards. We recruit candidates, we get all their names and then we collect signatures for them. We're not just collecting signatures for people who said they don't want to run.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

I have a video that you posted on YouTube to the longest ballot committee on August 18, 2024, in respect of the LaSalle—Émard—Verdun by-election, in which you state, “If we're going to break the record for the longest ballot, we need everyone to sign up as soon as possible. We've already collected a hundred nomination signatures for you. All you have to do is follow the instructions”.

In fact, you and other organizers for the longest ballot committee were going around with nomination forms that didn't have candidates' names on them. Isn't that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

That is not correct. There are a few—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

I'm going to stop you there, Mr. Szuchewycz, because I have a tweet that was posted by the longest ballot committee on January 22, 2024, of you, Kieran and, I believe, a Glen MacDonald. When we look more closely—this is you—we see where the candidate's name is on the nomination form with signatures. The candidate's name is blank.

That's precisely what you were doing: going out and collecting signatures, getting electors to sign blank nomination forms, not candidate nomination forms.

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

That is not accurate—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

I just presented you with evidence, documentary evidence—

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

No, that is not—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

—that establishes that in fact it is accurate.

I want to caution you, sir, that you're testifying before a parliamentary committee and you have an obligation to answer my questions fully and truthfully. If you fail to do so, sir, you can be held in contempt of Parliament. I want to make clear to you that I will not hesitate in using all of the tools available to hold you accountable should you not provide truthful and accurate answers, which up till now you have not.

I'm going to give you one last opportunity to confirm on the record that you went about collecting signatures from electors where the candidate's name was blank. That's what you did. Is that right?

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

No, that is not accurate. If you would give me a chance to actually respond.... You've made quite a few incorrect assumptions here. Where would you like me to begin—with the AI-doctored images or with your misunderstanding of what “sign up” means? In that video, when I say “sign up”, what I'm referring to is that these are candidates who have already expressed that they want to run. We then collected their signatures, with the candidate's name at the top, obviously. That's the rule—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

That candidate's name was not at the top.

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

It was at the top. I was there.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

The candidate's name was not at the top.

11:10 a.m.

Official Agent, Longest Ballot Committee

Tomas Szuchewycz

Then, when we say, “We already have your signatures and you need to finish signing up”, that is referring to “Fill out your forms and book your appointment with the returning officer to do your declaration.” This is very straightforward. You have it kind of mixed up.

If you want to talk about those AI-manipulated photos, I'm happy to do so.