Evidence of meeting #8 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Perrault  Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3), the committee is meeting in public for the first hour on the actions of the longest ballot committee in recent elections, and in camera for the second hour to discuss committee business.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format.

Before I continue, I ask everyone to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table. There's a QR code that you can follow. Please take care of the health and safety of the people here, especially our interpreters.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair. We have an experienced witness here with us. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, raise your hand. I don't believe there's anyone on Zoom, but if there is, use the “raise hand” feature.

I would now like to welcome our witness for today's meeting. From the Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, we have the Chief Electoral Officer himself, Monsieur Perrault.

You have five minutes.

Stéphane Perrault Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to speak with the committee today about its study of the actions of the longest ballot committee in the recent Canadian elections.

As you know, in September 2024, I wrote to the former minister of public safety, democratic institutions and intergovernmental affairs to ask the government to consider an amendment to Bill C‑65 in order to limit voters to signing the nomination paper in support of only one candidate. I suggested the same when I appeared before this committee to discuss the bill last fall, and I did so recently as well.

As I noted in the past, Elections Canada heard from electors and accessibility stakeholders that longer ballots present challenges for some electors, as they can be difficult to handle and navigate. It also heard that the multiple columns required to accommodate a large number of candidates can create confusion.

From an operational point of view, once folded, only about 100 of these long‑format ballots can fit in a single ballot box, compared to 1,000 regular ballots. This significantly increases the number of ballot boxes that have to be managed by election officers.

The long ballots also increase complexities during the counting of ballots. Handling and reviewing longer ballots can be difficult for workers and candidate representatives who are present. The count can extend well beyond normal hours, sometimes until five in the morning, as we have seen. This has an impact on poll workers. Not surprisingly, several have said that they would not be prepared to work where a long ballot is used.

While the write‑in ballot used in the Battle River—Crowfoot by‑election helped in reducing the impact of the large number of candidates, challenges remained for some electors. In my opinion, it isn't a viable long‑term solution.

As the committee has heard, in many of these elections, nomination papers for the various participating candidates were signed by the same electors. This indicates that voters who sign the nomination papers are not supporting the nomination of any particular candidate but rather the idea of having as many candidates as possible. This is why I suggested amendments to ensure that voters are limited to signing nomination papers in support of only one candidate. This restriction could be accompanied by administrative—not criminal—sanctions and would target more specifically organizers who encourage or incite electors to sign the nomination papers of more than one candidate. However, I'll repeat that candidates' nominations should not be invalidated or questioned if their papers include one or more signatures also found on another candidate's nomination paper.

The committee has heard a number of other recommendations, including limiting the number of candidates an official agent can support, with which I agree. I would clarify, however, that the limit should apply only to a specific electoral district. There are multiple cases in which one official agent acts for multiple candidates in different electoral districts—typically, of course, for the same party—which is perfectly reasonable and acceptable.

However, becoming a candidate should remain accessible to Canadians, and for that reason, I do not support increasing the number of signatures.

Finally, I would like to alert the committee to a recommendation made in 2022 by the former commissioner of Canada elections, Mr. Yves Côté, related to false or misleading information on nomination papers. Currently, there is no provision in the Canada Elections Act to sanction instances where signatures are collected prior to identifying a prospective candidate. Such a nomination would be rejected if the deceptive practice is known ahead of the nomination, as has happened in the past with candidates both from the longest ballot committee and from parties. However, if the practice is detected only after the fact, no provision currently exists in the act to sanction it. The recommendation made in 2022 in relation to false or misleading information in nomination papers would fill that gap and allow the commissioner to take action.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to answer questions.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Thank you so much, Mr. Perrault. You were well under the five minutes. As I said, you're an experienced witness.

We'll turn to Mr. Cooper for six minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for returning to the committee once again.

I want to pick up where you just left off in your testimony, because I received a copy of a complaint that had been sent to Elections Canada by Ryan Davies, who appeared before this committee and brought that complaint to this committee's attention.

Were you aware of that complaint?

11:05 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

I was not aware of that complaint at the time I testified before the committee. I am now aware of the complaint.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

The complaint stated, among other things, that there were potential violations of the Canada Elections Act by the longest ballot committee. The complaint included various correspondences as well as a photo of an organizer who was collecting, or appears to be collecting, signatures in which the candidate's name was blank.

In other words, if the picture was fully accurate—and it certainly appeared that the candidate's name was blank—electors would be signing a nomination paper for a candidate whose name would then be filled in after the fact, which would not be consistent with the Canada Elections Act.

What was the status of the complaint? Do you know what happened to that complaint?

11:05 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

After an election, we receive thousands of complaints. Whenever they allege a violation of the act, we don't scrutinize and determine whether there was adequate evidence or whether there was actually an offence of the act. We typically transfer that, as a matter of course, to the commissioner of Canada elections. She has a mandate to investigate violations and contraventions of the act.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

I appreciate that.

In the case of Mr. Davies' complaint, was that forwarded to the commissioner of Canada elections?

11:05 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

That's an interesting question.

She was seized of the information in the complaint. I learned about it after the testimony and asked for a search of that. The complaint itself was caught in our security filters because of possible contamination of the links. Other people who saw the evidence and the videos put forward by Mr. Davies did make complaints.

The commissioner—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

So I'm fully clear, essentially, Mr. Davies' complaint went into a black hole insofar as it was sent to your office, to Elections Canada, and because of whatever issue, it went into a black hole. It sounds to me that's effectively what happened.

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

I would not describe it in that manner.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

With the greatest respect, I understand these things sometimes happen, but there was a complaint. It sounds to me like no one looked at it. Is that accurate? Did someone look at it? When did anyone at Elections Canada first look at it?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

The complaint was received. Other complaints referencing the videos made public by Mr. Davies were received. The commissioner was seized of that information and the allegations. With regard to what you're asking, the physical complaint itself was not transferred, but she was seized of the matter.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

By being seized of the matter, what do you mean?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

She understands the allegations—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

When did she first understand the allegations that were set out in the complaint?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

I can only—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

Was it after Mr. Davies appeared before the committee?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

First of all, I cannot speak for the commissioner. Her office was seized of the issue a short time after. We're talking about July, if I'm not mistaken, after the election. As a matter of course, these issues are forwarded to the commissioner's office. To be clear, she received from the public and Elections Canada about 18,000 complaints, 2,000 of which, or close to, were forwarded by Elections Canada. As part of that, and with no significant delays, her office was seized of the information.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

Can you undertake to provide the committee with the chronology of what happened with that complaint, when it was identified and when it was transferred, or when the commissioner became seized of that complaint? It sounds to me like something went wrong with the complaint in terms of what happened on the part of Elections Canada.

Would you agree?

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

I certainly agree that something unusual happened with the complaint, in the sense that there are security parameters around our systems, and if there is a concern around links or documents, they are quarantined.

In this case, the information was also pointed to by other complainants and those complaints were transferred. I can commit to share with the committee the time in which these were transferred to the commissioner. I can't speak beyond that. What happens in the commissioner's office, of course, is not for me to speak to.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Thank you so much.

I might have exaggerated. You had 10 seconds; I'm sorry. I will try to give that back in a subsequent round.

We have Mr. Wilkinson for six minutes, please.

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver—Capilano, BC

Thank you for appearing.

You've been pretty clear about recommendations with respect to unique signatures and official agents. To be honest, many of the witnesses we've talked to have similar views.

You touched, in your comments, on your views around the issue of the 100 signatures that you need to obtain. Some have proposed that this threshold be changed to 0.5% of the population. Maybe you can just elaborate on why you think maintaining the 100 signatures is a good idea.

11:10 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

I don't think there's any magical number. It could be 75; it could be a bit more than 100. I don't see, in what we've witnessed, any need to change the number.

What we've seen is, I think, a respect for the letter, subject to the allegations made, but not a lot of respect for the spirit of the legislation, which is, in my view, that the person signing on agrees that this particular person should be a candidate—not just anybody, whoever that may be.

I think that's the real issue here, not so much the number.

Jonathan Wilkinson Liberal North Vancouver—Capilano, BC

You said in your statement that sanctions shouldn't be criminal. They should actually be administrative. Of course, the whole point of sanctions is to deter behaviour like this. What types of sanctions do you think would be appropriate?