Evidence of meeting #22 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was example.
1:40 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good day and thank you for being here to provide your expertise and contribute to the debate and the research we are currently doing.
When we talk about older workers, two problems arise. The problem we tackle regularly is keeping older workers on the job who are still employable and for whom there are jobs. I think older workers will agree. People who have worked all their lives have learned to work. It is part of what gives meaning to their lives. I will come back to that.
The ones I would like to speak for now are those for whom there is no longer any alternative. For them, you might say a Gordian knot appears every time they approach the government and, often, employers. They are people who can no longer work for purely objective reasons. They have reached the end of their ability to work. I will give you the example a woman talked about earlier.
Just recently, I met with forty or so women who had all worked in fish plants for more than 40 years. They started working there at 15, 16 or 17 years old. They are now between 50 and 60 years old. Some 40 of the women I met had all started work at the same time and were no longer able to work. They told me they were given three months of work a year, and those months of work became synonymous with hard labour. They did not want to hear of going to work elsewhere; they are no longer capable of it. They worked all their lives wearing rubber boots, in the damp, constantly moving 25 to 30 lb loads, often up to 2,000 lbs a day. So their backs are in bad shape.
What do we do with those people? How do we support them? They are people who, objectively speaking, can no longer work because of their physical condition.
Just as objectively, other people find themselves in a similar situation. I’m thinking of people like the women who worked at the Whirlpool plant in Rivière-du-Loup, where they manufactured stoves all their lives. However, the company closed down. They are people who are still capable of working. They did not work as hard as the women I talked about earlier, but they are no longer able to find a job. The plant has been closed for two years. There were about fifty workers there over 55 years old. Two of them have committed suicide. They don’t want us to talk about it but we must. After two years, there is no more employment insurance; there is nothing any more.
I will give you the example of a 57-year-old man who was provided two years of training paid for by the government. He undertook the retraining and submitted 92 applications for employment. He got an interview and was not selected because he was too old, he was told. He is an intelligent, sturdy man, capable of working, who wants to work. He is discouraged. I don’t know what has become of him. I could give you many similar examples.
Those are two objective situations where older workers cannot work. What do we do with them? The government objects to granting them income support. It does not make sense. What is left for them? Social assistance. After social assistance, what is left for them? To obtain social assistance benefits, they have to spend all the income they have earned. Often, it is not much, even though it is a whole life’s work. I am going to stop there.
I would ask the people who represent employers, including Mr. Kymlicka and the small business representative: What do we do with the people I talked about earlier? Do we ignore them or do we help them out, knowing that the employment insurance fund has a surplus every year?
1:45 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
I represent the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and many employers. I hear similar stories every time we publish a report or say there are vacant positions. The telephone rings all day and some people, 57- year olds, for example, ask me where they can go to work, what they can do. Unfortunately, the truth is, at this time, not all employers are aware of the value of an older employee. They often ask what it is going to cost them. They say that an older employee might suffer a back injury or some other injury. The employer thinks he will have to give an older employee one or two weeks training. That is a lot of time for someone who only employs four people.
To go back to the example you gave, if I have a business and I hire someone older who has two years training and good experience, he has the necessary education but I am going to spend two weeks training him and, after that, the risk of a back injury is much greater than if he were younger. Employers are still not aware of the value of older employees. That is a reality of the labour market, and we have to educate employers, speak to them, inform them of the fact that there are so many people in their community who are of such and such an age and have such and such training or education, and they can hire them. If they do not want to hire them, that is their choice, but when businesses do not have the information, it is difficult to say they are guilty of not hiring those people.
1:45 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
I appreciate your honesty. You might say there is a conflicting message; I am not suggesting that it comes from you. They say one of the solutions to the current labour shortage is to train older workers and have them re-enter the labour market. You describe the situation well. In spite of your effort, you cannot open doors for them, for the reasons you just outlined.
I want to hear your opinion on what I am about to say, even if you do not agree with me. We have to put an end to the false message that we are going to make every effort to ensure their re-entry when we know very well that employers are not willing to take them. We have to stop telling each other lies. I am not blaming you. It is the prevailing message from the government and from employers that is misleading.
Do you share that opinion?
1:45 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Yes. If you will permit me, I agree with you entirely that the message is not completely true.
But I am going to ask you a question.
I am an immigrant. When I arrived in this country, I did not speak either of the two official languages well. The first time someone hired me, that person took a big risk. I was willing to prove I had value. Today, if someone has a choice of hiring me or hiring this man — I have nothing against you—he may prefer to hire the man. First, because I am a woman and am of child-bearing age, etc. It is a risk.
Why not help small business take that risk? Why not reduce the contributions to employment insurance for businesses that hire people 50 years old and over? Why not help them take that risk? It is like helping banks take risks with immigrants. It’s the same thing. We have to help them take a risk.
That’s all I have to say. Thank you.
1:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
We're out of time, but thank you for that answer.
Madame Savoie.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
I am going to continue in the same vein. You suggested helping small businesses take risks, including by reducing their employment insurance premiums.
In your opinion, are there other ways of opening minds a bit on this subject?
1:50 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
First, in my opinion, would be a way of educating them. I don’t know how to say it in French, but it would be a handout about the value of employees of that kind. Sometimes that is enough. Small business owners are very tuned in, which is not happening in big business. We can give the example of a business where a man has made very good progress and where three employees 50 years old and over are working very well and have never suffered any more back injuries than others. An example like that may say more than you and I in a community. That is what we need: a positive example.
Second, we have to help them take the risk. We could reduce the tasks or grant them an income tax credit for hiring older people, persons with disabilities, immigrants, all those who represent too much risk for a small business. Ninety-seven per cent of businesses on the market employ fewer than five people. If every business, even 1 out of 10, hired one older person, we would be doing much better.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
Okay. Thank you.
I think it was you, Mr. Messenger, who mentioned LMDAs and LMPAs. One is for development of labour and the other one is around productivity. Did I understand that correctly, and can you go over that for me?
1:50 p.m.
Strategic Planning and Policy Analyst, Skills and Learning Branch, Nova Scotia Department of Education
Certainly.
The labour market development agreement is essentially a partnership between each of the provinces and the federal government. The majority of the money is spent on development of the labour market for recipients of employment insurance funds.
1:50 p.m.
Strategic Planning and Policy Analyst, Skills and Learning Branch, Nova Scotia Department of Education
Yes.
A labour market partnership agreement is a similar agreement with a pot of funds and has more flexibility. It works with folks who are not receiving employment insurance. With older workers, the labour market partnership agreement in place in Ontario right now would allow flexibility for things like programming, but it would also allow flexibility to go beyond a two-year funding stage for deliverers of these programs. It would allow flexibility to support people beyond simply either tuition or the direct costs of retraining. When you have a 50-year-old who is broken from 35 years of hard labour, they most likely still have a balance on a mortgage, car payments, etc. They can't stop work to retrain. Then they're not under assistance.
1:50 p.m.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
You referred to older workers. In my office I've met people who were 35 years old and didn't have proper training, but didn't seem to fit into a category that allowed them to take retraining because they had families, they had rent to pay, and so on. How could we remove these barriers to retraining perfectly able and willing people and meet some of those market needs? It's not just tuition for whatever course; it's the cost of living. How do we address that? The problem exists right across the country.
1:55 p.m.
Strategic Planning and Policy Analyst, Skills and Learning Branch, Nova Scotia Department of Education
It exists across the country, and I would venture to say that it is probably one of the most complicated issues that faces Canadians right now. It is not an issue that can be addressed by the federal government on its own or by the provincial government on its own. It is an issue around the productivity of all people in Nova Scotia and in Canada.
The onus is on all aspects--that includes the federal government--to be able to provide supports around this retraining. The onus is on employers to identify and recognize prior learning--the skills that come with experience and go well beyond formal training. The onus is on the individuals themselves to take a chance and move beyond their current skill sets. We need to look at this as an entire system. This is not something that only one entity can solve.
I suspect that most of it is very simply a communications issue. We have a lot of older workers who believe and have bought the notion that they are no longer productive or as viable. We have employers who feel the same way. We have government programs that convince them of that.
1:55 p.m.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
Right now there are many people who may be receiving welfare benefits and can't go to college or university without their support for living. Would you see that as an option, to allow them to continue receiving the benefits of social assistance, to allow them to get out of that cycle? Is that something...? Perhaps any of you could answer that.
1:55 p.m.
Strategic Planning and Policy Analyst, Skills and Learning Branch, Nova Scotia Department of Education
I certainly do see that as one option, most definitely.
1:55 p.m.
Project Coordinator, Community Development, Acadia Centre for Small Business and Entrepreneurship
I think that happens currently. There are programs out there, through the department of community services, where they do support their clients to further their education and still maintain their income support.
One point I wanted to bring up was that in some of our recommendations we talk about transition. When you look at older workers--and Yves mentioned the example of somebody coming out of a fish plant after a number of years, after twenty to thirty years--there is a lot of work that has to happen with older workers before they can even look at getting another job or furthering their employment. They have a lot of barriers, such as low self-confidence. We've dealt with a lot of clients over the years who were simply afraid to come through our doors because their life existed in putting on rubber boots every day, and they had no idea how to transfer those skills to a different employer. So I would recommend that there be some more work done individually—we call it transitioning, consulting, or counseling—with older workers to look at the bigger picture and try to establish really good self-confidence and looking at their essential skills and what they can transfer into different employment.
1:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
A quickie. I gave you a couple of extra minutes because of the day....
1:55 p.m.
NDP
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
Because you stole some at the last meeting, I'm keeping count.
I'd like to come back to the notion that you raised about non-qualified workers and their being in demand. I wonder if we are resorting to immigrants or agreements with, say, Mexico. How do we ensure that their human rights are protected? I don't know if you were suggesting impermanence or simply agreements to have them come to fulfill a particular contract, because that is also one of the things I've been hearing, that in some cases workers' rights are abused or not respected. What mechanisms would you...?
2 p.m.
Senior Policy Analyst, Atlantic Institute for Market Studies
I think there are pretty good labour standards in place already. I think this applies to both the guest worker kinds of programs and the immigrant programs. I think what Canada has to realize is that we're in competition with the United States, the EU, and everybody for the talented worker in either type of stream. There is a great incentive on the part of employers to provide decent working environments now.
One of the examples that I use a lot is with Mexican truckers. Study after study has shown that they are as qualified, if not more, than their counterparts in the United States, yet the Teamsters have managed to block them coming in. There's this huge labour pool of excellent people who can come in and solve our trucking problem, and we have a huge trucking problem. Why don't we avail ourselves of that?
2 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
That's all for this round.
I have only a couple points for clarification before we move on to Mr. Warkentin.
You talked about labour market partnership agreements. We were talking with the analyst here. We were under the impression that those were no longer.... Is that right?
