Human Resources Committee on Oct. 26th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying employability in Canada.

I'd like to welcome all the witnesses here today. I want to thank you for taking time out of your busy schedules to be here to talk to us as we talk to people across the country about this very important issue of employability.

As you may or may not be aware, we were in St. John's, Newfoundland, and Halifax and Montreal this week, and of course Toronto today and tomorrow. We'll be heading out to Vancouver, Calgary, and Saskatoon in the coming weeks, in November, to talk to people about these issues. We could probably spend a day or two with each individual organization, but this is all the time we have, and we're grateful that we have it. So we appreciate you taking the time as well.

We'll ask you to do your opening statements within seven minutes, and I'll let you know when you have a minute left. Then we'll have a first round of questions of seven minutes, a second round of questions of five minutes, after which, time permitting, any other member can ask additional questions.

Why don't we start with Mr. D'Amours?

[An hon. member]

How about hearing from the witnesses?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Oh, you're right. I always leave something out.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Chair, if you really want, I can start.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That may set the tone the wrong way, though. That's the only problem.

Anyway, I think I have it right now. I have to leave something out every time. This time it was the witnesses.

All right, we will start with Ms. Paradowski, for seven minutes, please.

[Cheryl Paradowski, Executive Director, Canadian Food Industry Council]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee members.

Thank you to for this opportunity to speak this afternoon.

My name is Cheryl Paradowski. I'm the executive director of the Canadian Food Industry Council, which represents the grocery retail and wholesale sector in Canada. Our vision is to create effective solutions to the human resource challenges faced by the food retail and wholesale sector to ensure the long-term growth and viability of an industry that feeds 32 million Canadians in every community across this country and makes a significant contribution to the standard of living that we currently enjoy.

We are part of Canada's national sector council network. I understand that the committee has already received some presentations from our colleagues. I know my colleague Mr. Maynard is giving a little more of an introduction to sector councils, so I am going to speak mostly about our sector.

As an overview, our industry employs over 570,000 Canadians, which is just over 3% of the Canadian workforce. It is one quarter of the total retail workforce. The industry generates over $70 billion in sales each year, which contributes $22.5 billion to Canadians' annual GDP--about 2%--a more significant contribution, I think, than many people often consider from this industry.

The industry represents 45,000 businesses, one third of which are small and medium-sized enterprises, so we certainly represent a range across Canada. Unlike some of the other industries that I'm sure you've been hearing of, only 24% of our workforce is over the age of 45, versus the national average, which is around 39% right now. So we are a relatively young industry, although in some of the key positions we are still projected to have some impact from the baby boomer departure. As an example, one of our major stakeholders has 25% of their meat cutters, meat managers, and bakers between the ages of 58 and 65, so there are some impacts pending there.

I want to take an opportunity to speak about some of the key challenges we face. The first is based on being part of the service sector as a whole. I know, based on the colleagues I have with me this afternoon, you're certainly going to be hearing about skilled trades, many of whom consider themselves to be the poor cousins when we look at people's impressions of careers and jobs. If skilled trades are the poor cousins, I sometimes think the service sector is the illegitimate children who nobody is even prepared to recognize, because we really find that the impression people have is that this is not a sector where you can build a career, and it really hurts the opportunity for our industry to attract staff.

I heard a story this past weekend. I was meeting with an extremely successful one-store operator in the Ottawa area who worked in the industry all his life. He went to the University of Ottawa, studied business, and had no fewer than three of his professors try to convince him that he was going to waste his education if he didn't go out and work at a real job. That's the type of challenge we face in trying to build a competitive workforce.

Recently, over 85% of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business retail members reported hiring difficulties in the past three years, according to a survey they conducted in 2005. It is a huge challenge to attract individuals, starting in the service sector, then into retail as a whole, and then looking at food retail specifically, which isn't even as sexy as selling jeans for the Gap or cosmetics at the Body Shop.

Our stakeholders basically include the large retailers. Our board of directors includes Loblaws, Safeway, Sobeys, and A&P Canada, which now represents Metro as well. Of the major unions in the industry--and it is a highly unionized industry, with over 40% unionized, which is a fair bit higher than the national average--UFCW Canada is the largest, followed by the Teamsters, which largely represents the warehouse piece. Then there are major associations in the industry: the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers and l'Association des détaillants en alimentation. So we have a pretty representative group of stakeholders.

They have identified their major issues as improving the image of the industry as a career destination, because those are key issues that impact both recruitment and retention; and enhancing the training culture within the sector, because currently, as a result of the image issues, turnover is so high that it is difficult to convince operators to invest in training staff who are going to leave quickly.

In terms of looking at establishing stronger links with the education community, we certainly discovered one dichotomy. Our industry is indicating that there is a shortage of meat cutters, yet we have colleges cutting meat-cutting programs. We have to fix that up, along with strengthening the human resource practices of small and medium-sized operations that don't have a head office to back them up.

I'll finish with some of the recommendations, because we were asked to bring recommendations as to what the federal government could be doing about these issues. I certainly hope you will continue to consider the sector council program to be a key partner in addressing the issues of employability and the enhancement of the productivity within the Canadian economy.

The federal government can continue to gather detailed information about diverse labour market needs and issues that would help to drive the federal immigration policy. Considering that HRSDC estimates that 100% of the growth in Canada's workforce will be the result of immigration by 2013, we have a concern that our current policies aren't going to attract the kinds of people who are going to be able to be hired into our sector. Sector councils can certainly be a key partner in providing that information as well.

We hope the federal government will continue retaining some form of national training and development mandate, even if it's as simple as the tax incentives that would encourage employers to consider training as an investment rather than a cost. Full devolution of the training agenda at the provincial level does create too many opportunities for duplication of effort and fragmentation of results.

Finally, we would suggest a review of the pension and income tax policies that currently create a disincentive for mature workers to consider part-time employment, because we do see this as being a primary source of an alternative labour market for the grocery retail sector, especially considering that demographics are projecting such a shrinkage in the youth workforce, which is currently our primary source.

Thank you again very much for the opportunity to address you this afternoon.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

I'd like to move on to you, Mr. Wassmansdorf. Thank you very much. You have seven minutes, please.

[David Wassmansdorf, Immediate Past President, Canadian Home Builders' Association]

Thank you. My name is David Wassmansdorf. I'm the immediate past president of the Canadian Home Builders' Association. I'm a home builder and land developer based in Burlington. As we were talking about before, this is my volunteer gig.

With me today is Mary Lawson. Mary is the past-past president of the Home Builders' Association. Mary is based in Orangeville.

With us as well today are resource people, our chief operating officer, John Kenward, and our director of human resource development, Paul Gravelle.

It's clear that we do have an extreme shortage of skilled trades in the residential construction industry. This affects both new home builders as well as renovators. This isn't simply a reflection of high levels of housing activity and renovation activity from the past few years. There has been a growing problem for a great number of years.

Over time, we've made representations on behalf of the housing industry that have largely been ignored. We feel there's an elitist view toward skills, a view dominated by organizations like HRSDC. Rather than taking a positive, action-oriented approach to addressing skills shortages, the department has been more prone to challenge the industry to continue to try to prove there's a problem. Continuous research has substituted for action. The existing culture resists change, breeds inactivity, and supports the status quo. The end result is inertia, and it has caused a significant deterioration in Canada's capacity to respond effectively to the demand for skilled people.

This isn't new. This culture breeds complexity, to the point where the array of actions in government-funded entities has become almost unpenetrable. There is an appearance of a great deal of activity, but very little ever gets done.

There is a need for clarity and definition on the federal government's role in the field of education and training, including transparency and accountability of its programs, funding agreements, and activities. And while provincial governments have jurisdiction over education and training, this alone does not explain why Canada has not moved forward with a coherent, integrated approach to Canada's skilled labour requirements.

Let's not use the excuse of jurisdiction for why we haven't moved forward. By way of analogy, I can point to the fact that the provincial jurisdiction for building codes has not prevented the development of a model national building code, which involves all affected parties in home building and construction and is adopted by provincial governments across the country. That is why we have a uniform code environment across the country. No such approach exists for addressing Canada's skilled labour requirements.

No one level of government has the capacity to address Canada's skilled labour shortages. As well, little progress can be achieved with governments acting independently of one another and participating in an inchoate array of activities that have a life of their own, consume resources, and don't produce results on the ground. There is a need for a comprehensive and cohesive national strategy to address Canada's skills requirements, including national training standards.

The education and training system requires high-level political direction at every level. The ministers must be directly engaged.

There needs to be a sense of results, measurability, and accountability. We need to ask what measurable progress is being made in reducing skilled labour shortages across the country; what measurable results we are getting from the federal government's various engagements and investments; and whether there is a strategic action plan to guide the federal government's efforts and to support interdepartmental and intergovernmental cooperation and coordination.

I can only think about the work that is being done at the federal level on smart government and smart regulation. Is there a plan to unleash the capacities of our education and training system and enable industries such as ours to participate in action-oriented initiatives? Where are the educators? Where are the mentors in all this?

The Canadian Home Builders' Association has developed a human resource development action plan that has been ignored. The work would focus on the following four strategic objectives: to support the development and delivery of training to occupations in the residential construction industry; to increase funding for industry training in order to increase the industry's capacity to participate in planning, decision-making, and implementing training in the residential construction industry on an ongoing basis; to support measures that will increase employee retention and improve job quality in the residential construction industry; and to promote careers in the residential construction industry.

[Mary Lawson, Past President, Canadian Home Builders' Association]

I will continue with a few more comments.

I too am a builder, a custom builder in the Orangeville area.

It's very important to emphasize that the skills required in residential construction are very different from those required in the industrial, commercial, institutional, heavy industrial, or civil engineering work sectors. People working in the residential construction industry use very different knowledge and skill sets. The size of our industry, according to Stats Canada, in 2004 was $83.5 billion; non-residential was $57.1 billion.

Trades in short supply include our framers, drywallers, tapers, bricklayers, cribbers, plumbers, general carpenters, and that's just the short list. While the needs for the residential construction sector are distinct from those in the ICI and other construction sectors, those with residential skills can adapt to the demands of the non-residential construction sectors. What this means is that our sector is having to compete with immense demands being brought upon us by the megaprojects, such as of course the tar sands and the Olympic Games, as well as infrastructure investments.

There is a need to recognize residential trades and occupations in education and training systems, in the red seal program, and in immigration policies. We believe that Canada's education institutes, technical schools and colleges in particular, are as frustrated as we are that Canada does not have a system that provides national recognition for the residential trades and support for portability and transferability.

Let me observe that we were pleased with the federal government's recognition of apprentices in its last budget. This was certainly a first step. However, it points to the need for change. Only red seal occupations qualify under those new initiatives. There are 45 red seal occupations, of which 23 are construction trades, all of which are focused on the non-residential construction sector.

The residential sector, as I noted earlier, employs a great many people who are not part of the red seal program and therefore cannot participate in these new initiatives. We're very pleased to read that the Minister of Finance is indicating that skills training is going to have an important part in the next budget. As of today, we are particularly impressed with the comments from the Governor of the Bank of Canada reporting the need for emphasis and action on this front.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move to Ms. Reynolds. Seven minutes, please.

[Joyce Reynolds, Senior Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you today about the number one issue facing Canada's $51-billion food service industry, and that is labour shortages.

For our members in western Canada, this is already a crisis. For the balance of the country, it's a growing problem that will get progressively worse over the next 20 years. There is no getting around or wishing away two realities that confront the labour market: first, the country's birthrate has fallen precipitously in the last three decades, seriously constraining growth in the labour market; second, we are on the verge of the biggest exodus from our labour market in the country's history. The baby boomers are already starting to retire, and the numbers are truly daunting.

The Conference Board of Canada projects that there will be a shortfall of more than 950,000 workers by 2020, unless we do something to increase the available labour pool.

All industries will suffer from this labour shortage, but the outlook for the food service industry is particularly serious, because the labour force will be older, and of course our labour force is a lot younger. In fact, 44% of today's food service workers—more than 440,000 employees—are 15 to 24 years of age. So projections suggest that by the year 2025, the population of 15- to 24-year-olds in Canada will actually decline by 330,000.

At 3.1%, the unemployment rate in Alberta is the lowest in 32 years. The number of unemployed youth fell a staggering 25%, or by 7,000 people, in the last year. This is having a devastating effect on food service operations in the region.

Employers are working 17-hour days, spending too much time on food preparation and service, and not enough time managing their businesses and training and mentoring their staff.

Labour shortages are forcing operators to reduce store hours, reduce menu offerings, shut down parts of their operations, and abandon their expansion plans.

Average weekly wages in food service increased 21.2% from January to July, 2006, compared to the same period in 2004. In contrast, the average industrial rate in Alberta has increased 10.1%. Despite this huge jump in wages, the average number of employees per restaurant fell from 14.3 in 2004 to 12.4 in 2005. This represents a shortage of more than 13,000 people.

In addition, for the first time in 14 years, the number of food service establishments in Alberta declined this year. So the industry is actually contracting when food service demand has never been higher, due to the labour crunch.

The demographics tell us that the situation in Alberta and B.C. is only the beginning and will spread across the country within the next few years. We are already hearing from members in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, and Atlantic Canada who are having a difficult time recruiting staff.

We recognize that the labour shortage is a complex challenge and there is no magic bullet. Businesses must be more flexible and creative in their recruitment of workers and must place a higher priority in terms of retention of existing employees.

Food service operators are increasing wages and benefits and increasing capital investment in labour-saving devices, although they are limited in what they can do in that regard, since we are a service industry. They are putting more emphasis on attracting and accommodating under-represented groups, such as aboriginals and persons with disabilities, and on looking for new pools of talent, such as older workers, to entice into the industry. But these are not enough. We can't overcome the demographic reality confronting the Canadian labour market. We need dramatic changes in public policy.

Our employment and immigration policies were developed in an era when unemployment was a national challenge. The new challenge is finding workers, and we will be in a vicious international competition for immigrants with developed countries, such as the U.S., Europe, and Australia, which are experiencing the same demographic trends and labour shortage challenges.

Clearly there are some changes that need to be made by government now to encourage greater participation in the labour force. Our recommendations are outlined in the submission, which hopefully all of you have received, and I will review them briefly.

We need to modernize our immigration system, and in particular the point system, so that it recognizes the diverse needs of Canada's labour market. We need to put more emphasis on Canadian work experience and school credentials, and less emphasis on foreign education and experience.

We need to make the temporary foreign worker programs into bridging programs to permanent residency.

We need to streamline the temporary foreign worker program, allowing for bulk applications and more efficient processes.

We need to expand the working holiday program through negotiation of a larger cap and longer permanent period.

We need incentives for labour mobility within Canada, encouraging the unemployed to move from areas of high unemployment to areas where labour is in high demand.

We need to remove structural impediments to employment and policies that discourage work, such as high marginal tax rates for lower-income employees and seniors. This means increasing the basic personal tax exemption, lowering payroll taxes, and lowering clawbacks on income-tested programs such as federal retirement benefits.

In summary, Mr. Chair, the labour shortage issue is already a crisis in western Canada and it is the greatest single issue our industry faces in the years to come. We believe your committee and this government must move as quickly as possible to address the labour shortages today, so that we will be able to compete tomorrow.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Reynolds.

We'll move to Mr. Maynard for seven minutes, please.

[Kevin Maynard, Executive Director, Canadian Supply Chain Sector Council]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My comments today will reinforce some of the messages you've heard from some of my other sector council partners and perhaps shed a new light on our story.

First, I'd like to begin with what a sector council is. A sector council is a strategic partnership that identifies and implements industry-driven labour market solutions in key sectors of our economy. Our partners include employers, employees, educators, governments, and other stakeholders relevant to each sector.

It is important to note that some sector councils began their work in the late 1980s, while others are still under development. Today, sector councils reach close to 50% of Canada's labour market. They operate with both public and private funding and support.

Working together, as the alliance of sector councils are tasked, these not-for-profit, industry-driven, pan-Canadian organizations help to bridge that gap between policy and real world activity in the area of human resources strategy and labour market information. Despite increasing resource shortages, they operate in an environment of growing expectations and urgent needs to help Canada compete on the global stage.

In the 2002-05 period, sector councils involved over 290,000 employers, 182 business groups, and 115 labour unions. We worked with over 340 federal and provincial departments and agencies and convened over 3,000 workshops for some 55,000 employees. We developed or updated some 280 occupational standards and certified close to 150,000 workers to meet new occupations and competency requirements.

One of our primary areas of focus relates to labour market issues. We concentrate our efforts on preparing labour market information on particular sectors of the economy to assess what the skill shortages are and where they are likely to occur. We work with the education system to identify how students can be better equipped for industry through college and high schools. We prepare information on career possibilities for young people and those looking to change careers, and the education and training required for those possibilities.

We develop standards and certification for new entrants and for those working in the workforce to advance their skills development and facilitate their labour mobility. We work to increase the workforce participation of aboriginal people and find ways to ensure efficient foreign credential recognition. We help employers with hiring and retention of new immigrants. We address issues relevant to an aging workforce. We increase opportunities for Canadians with disabilities and we increase opportunities for women in non-traditional occupations. That's what the sector councils do in general.

The Canadian Supply Chain Sector Council, which I represent, is one of the newest sector councils. The Canadian supply chain sector includes all the functions involved in planning and managing the flow of goods and services from source to consumer, the entire product and service continuum from raw material source to the consumer.

The Canadian supply chain sector involves firms, both small and large, that employ an estimated 700,000 workers in this country. These workers can be identified in seven sub-functional areas: senior management, logistics information systems, warehousing, transportation, inventory and material control, purchasing, and marketing and sales. This range of function includes employees with strategic responsibilities such as a supply chain manager for a major retailer to those in an operational position such as longshoremen at one of Canada's major ports.

The issues we face at the Canadian Supply Chain Sector Council are similar to those of all other sector councils. As the nature of work is changing, there is a role for technology as a key business driver, yet only 12% of the employees who were part of our sector council study indicated they had the requisite skills to fully employ technology in their workplace.

As to the growth of the sector and shortages of quality employees, over the next two to four years, through normal growth in our industries, attrition, and retirement, we anticipate an increase in our employee needs within our sector of 12.3% on an annual basis, roughly 86,000 new hires per year. Where are these employees to come from and how will they develop the requisite skills to help our firms in the sector compete effectively?

There's currently a lack of awareness of jobs in the sector. There's a lack of clearly defined career paths and mobility within the sector. There are few strategies to link the professional certification offered by each one of the associations and few strategies to encourage or enable newcomers or older adults and other under-represented groups to seek employment in the sector. There's increased competition from other sectors for exactly the same people. As a result of these issues, our council will be working on a range of initiatives.

We are developing strategies that will result in increased public awareness of career opportunities within our sector; the identification and clarification of the global processes and policy best practices for assisting firms in our sector; the development of proactive initiatives to increase competitiveness of the Canadian supply chain sector; the creation of uniform national standards to ensure worker mobility across provinces; the identification and implementation of practical solutions to address current and future industry needs; the development and implementation of a career information initiative to market the sector to youth, newcomers, aboriginals and other key targets as a viable career choice.

We cannot, however, be successful without continued federal government support of the sector council program and the continued coordination amongst its various departments to encourage a more strategic approach to the labour market issues we have raised.

Thank you for providing us with the opportunity to appear before the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you as well.

I would like to thank everyone for their presentations.

And, David, your directness and frankness was appreciated as well. I don't think you can send a strong enough message to any government of the shortage of skills and the issues we have in the workplace, so thank you very much, and to all of you, for being here today.

I think now we can go to questions.

I was going to give Mr. D'Amours the floor. I'm not sure if that was a good thing or not. Anyway, seven minutes, sir.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will ask my question in French, though.

I address directly Ms. Reynolds about some of her comments I disagree with. This concerns recommendation number one which, I must admit, surprises me a little.

You work in the food service industry, which includes hostelry.

My wife works for a food wholesaler in New Brunswick.

Since we started our hearings in Saint-John's, Newfoundland, in Halifax, Nova Scotia, in Montreal, Quebec and here, in Toronto, when we talked with the representatives of the fish processing industry, with those of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and with all of you here today, all agreed that we now have a labour shortage.

I would like you to explain us your recommendation to the government to go and find people in an area where the unemployment rate is higher and, as we would say in my area, to ship them to another area of the country. I can tell you that my position on this is clear. Anyway, conservative members are well aware of it.

What do you say to people of an industry located in New Brunswick, in Nova Scotia, in rural Quebec, in Newfoundland and Labrador, who are not affected so much by unemployment as they are by the seasons? If it weren't for changing seasons and the tourism industry, we might have other industries, but it is not our reality. As far as the food service industry and the hostelry sector are concerned, I can understand that in Toronto, they may do business twelve months a year but it is not the case all over the country.

I'm going to explain it to you because, hearing you, I really have the impression that the head office of your organization is located in Alberta. I'm speaking to you about other areas of the country where seasonal industry does exist. You are telling business managers of these areas that we can take their employees and send them to work elsewhere, in provinces where there may be a labour need. This means that the following year, these business will not have the employees they need to operate. They will have to shut down.

[Joyce Reynolds]

I hope I'm going to have some time to answer the question.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

If not, don't worry; I will give you time in my second round.

[Joyce Reynolds]

Okay. I appreciate that.

I understand your concern. You don't want employees to be ripped from their communities with children in tow. In all cases I understand that's not realistic, but I think there should be some assistance for those people who are willing to move and are interested in moving.

I also have to point out the contradictions in current legislation. Right now if you're an operator in Alberta and you want to apply for a foreign worker permit, you have to go through a labour market opinion process, which means you have to prove to officials that there's no other unemployed Canadian who can do the job, so right now our operators in Alberta are forced to advertise for a minimum three-week period in other regions of the country. If you're saying it's totally unrealistic to expect people to move, then why do we have that requirement as part of the foreign worker permit process? You can't have it both ways.

I understand your frustration, because I remember they told us that they're frustrated because of the number of people moving out to Alberta. It's the employees who are moving out to Alberta, not the unemployed, and that's one of the issues.

If we extend what's happening in Alberta right across the country--and the demographics tell us that's what's going to happen--we have to find a way to look at the unemployed work force. Labour mobility might be providing transportation costs when people can commute just outside of their community, or they could temporarily move for a shorter period of time. We have to look at all the options. We're looking at a dramatic gap between jobs and people and we have to look at creative ways to fill those gaps. We have to look at all the different options and all the different structural impediments.

I appreciate what you're saying, but you'll have to appreciate that if there are jobs going begging and there are unemployed people in regions or communities nearby, we have to match them up. That's what we're saying.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I agree with that part. The thing is, what we do with an employee who works for a hotel, for example, in my riding of Madawaska—Restigouche? It is seasonal because it's the service industry. If we take that person, or construction, it's the same situation; they are short of employees year after year.

Imagine if we try to convince.... I understand what you are saying about the present situation with the department and having to put an offer in the newspaper for people from Canada. That's one thing, the businesses in my riding of Madawaska—Restigouche are the tourist industry for about seven, eight, or nine months a year out of 12 months. After that the person will go to the EI system, and that is why the EI will increase in my specific area. What you are saying is we should take those persons who live in those high-EI areas and shift them to other areas. What happens to the hotel in my riding the next year? Who will work for that business?

The experienced person, the person who has already been trained, will move elsewhere.

[Joyce Reynolds]

Yes, but we're looking at demographics. There are going to be labour shortages everywhere. When the season ends at that hotel, those employees may have to commute to where there are jobs in the next community.

We know there are a lot of full-year jobs within our industry in all parts of the country, and those jobs will be available, so let's help make those matches between those people who are unemployed until their hotel is operational again with those businesses that are in desperate need for employees. That's what we are saying.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Okay. I will come back on my next round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I know you will.

Madame Bonsant is next.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I don't want to come back to the moving of employees mentioned by Mr. D'Amours. I've been sitting on this committee for two days now and I feel as if I were in the National Hockey League where employers make higher bids to obtain qualified employees whereas others are deprived of their workers.

For example, in the neighbouring district, there is the Olymel company which employed experienced, skilled people. It shut down to go and settle in Winnipeg. Something is wrong; there was an industry in place, with skilled employees. The company moved to Winnipeg, knowing full well that there was a shortage of labour there. I don't sit on the board so I cannot tell whether the company is well managed or not. I think this decision lacks logic. Those people are 48 years old, 49 years old, 50 years old or 52 years old. Women work. I don't think they will go, they will leave their families to move to Winnipeg. Mexicans won't do it, why should Quebeckers or Canadians do it?

I have some difficulty with your proposal. Why do industries that employ qualified people close their doors to move to Alberta although there is a labour shortage in the West? Alberta and British Columbia are not the only provinces in the country. There are eight other provinces and three territories that must also survive. We don't wish our schools to shut down because of the exodus of young people and because workers moved.

The former liberal government engaged massively in regional rural and industrial development. In this case, it is rural development.

I understand that you don't have a solution but I think that immigration would be one. I think we should work on it.

I would like to hear your comments on this, Ms. Reynolds.

[Joyce Reynolds]

Thanks.

I'm going to respond in English; I'm sorry.

I appreciate what you're saying, but as I said before, right now it's the employed who are being attracted to the jobs out in western Canada. What we're saying is let's try to match the unemployed with the jobs. We're not saying we should force anybody who is unemployed to move to these jobs. We're saying provide incentives for the unemployed to move to these jobs, as opposed to the people in your riding who are employed and are the ones leaving right now.

[France Bonsant, Bloc, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

With all these job losses which small communities like mine have, didn't you give a thought to moving the industry instead of moving the people? The knowledge and the skills are where they are.