Evidence of meeting #79 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Janice Charette  Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and to the motion adopted on May 31, the committee will now commence its study on the Canada summer jobs program.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank the officials--Ms. Jackson, Ms. Charette, and Ms. Shanks--who've come in today to talk to us. I believe they have an opening presentation.

We'll have you guys do your opening presentation--if people would put their BlackBerrys on mute, that would be great--and then we'll try to get in a couple of rounds of questions, probably two five-minute rounds so that we can get in as many questions as we can. We have a couple of other things on our agenda this morning, so we will be breaking promptly at 10 o'clock.

Ms. Charette, I believe you have an opening statement.

9:05 a.m.

Janice Charette Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

I do, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.

Let me start with some very brief introductions. I'm Janice Charette, Deputy Minister of Human Resources and Social Development. I am joined today by my colleague Karen Jackson, the acting senior assistant deputy minister responsible for the skills and employment branch at HRSDC, and Sharon Shanks, our director general of services for youth within Service Canada.

I'm here today to talk to you about the Canada summer jobs initiative. The new initiative provides wage subsidies to help Canadian employers create career-related summer jobs for students between the ages of 15 and 30. It is designed to create jobs that not only meet employers' needs but also benefit young people who need the jobs the most.

Canada Summer Jobs is aimed at helping thousands of students across the country secure high-quality, career-related jobs this summer. The initiative was set up to help young people not only find a job, but ultimately to get a good start on a career.

The program was created with three key objectives in mind: first, creating jobs that would otherwise not be created; second, helping students who need it the most; and finally, providing high-quality career-related work experience.

Let me just start by setting some context around the labour market reality that lies behind these objectives. Right now Canada's economy is doing very well, and unemployment is the lowest it has been in 30 years. The Canadian labour market is performing well, and Canadian youth are benefiting from both the buoyant economy and the strong labour market. More than 60,000 jobs have already been posted at Service Canada centres for youth, and that was at the end of May.

In addition, experience with the summer employment programs indicates that many larger private sector employers would hire students without a wage subsidy. That's why private sector employers with more than 50 employees were not included in the Canada summer jobs initiative.

Let me go back to those three main objectives that I described earlier, first with respect to jobs not otherwise created.

There are three primary reasons for this focus. First, program evidence found that the public and the private sectors did not have as much need for a wage subsidy to create summer jobs. In fact, our data indicate that about 43% of public sector employers and 58% in the private sector indicated that they would have created jobs without a subsidy. Second, program evidence also revealed that some employers with access to other funds to hire summer students, such as multinational businesses, were receiving subsidies from the former summer career placement initiative. Our experience with summer employment programming also indicated that students considered their work experiences in the not-for-profit and public sectors to be quite valuable and career-related.

This initiative also encourages employers to help students who need it the most--those who would not find work as a result of where they live, perhaps because of the barriers they face, or both, in some cases. As well, it encourages employers to provide assistance to those areas where students are most in need.

This focus is important, because our program evidence showed that despite a strong economy, many students continued to experience problems in finding summer employment. In addition, some young people experienced higher levels of unemployment than others as a result of the barriers they faced. The unemployment rate, for example, for aboriginal young people was much higher than the 2006 national average of 12% for young people from ages 15 to 24. For example, aboriginal young people from ages 15 to 24 who are living off reserve in British Columbia had an unemployment rate of 20.4%, which is considerably higher than the 12% national average unemployment rate for youth in this age cohort.

Other young people faced barriers related to where they lived. For example, in rural and remote areas such as the territories, northern Manitoba, and some parts of Atlantic Canada, the overall unemployment rate can be 25% or higher, making it very difficult for students to find jobs.

Canada Summer Jobs focuses on creating longer, higher-quality, career-related job experiences for students. It is intended to benefit students by giving them skills for the future and letting them earn money for their education now.

Data we have from students reinforce the focus on career-related jobs. In fact, 55% of students who worked in the not-for-profit sector during 2005 reported that their summer job was related to their career choice and indeed confirmed their career choice. In addition, 74% of students who were employed by the not-for-profit sector indicated that their summer job would help them get full-time work in their chosen field.

Let me provide you with some information on the Canada summer jobs initiative budget. The budget for the initiative for 2007-08 is $85.9 million, which I believe is what Minister Solberg said to you when he met with the committee on May 15, 2007. The full costs of this initiative will not be known until later this year, after the employers who are participating in the program submit all of their documentation to support payment at the end of the summer. Some organizations take a few weeks at the conclusion of the work term, and some even a few months, to submit that information. We are managing the resources for this initiative within the overall departmental resource envelope.

The Canada summer jobs initiative was designed to better suit today's economy and today's labour market. We introduced a set of fair, objective, and rigorous assessment criteria to assess proposals; however, as the program was being launched it became evident that a number of organizations, particularly in the not-for-profit and the public sectors, could not adapt to the new criteria fast enough. We did not anticipate the degree to which applying the new criteria would affect the not-for-profit and public sector organizations that had previously received funding under the summer career placements to deliver important services to communities over the summer.

So Minister Solberg asked us to do a review of the unsuccessful applicants that were not awarded funding in the first round of funding decisions. Obviously, this was a review that we did quite quickly, given that the summer was upon us and this is a summer job program, and we concentrated on the not-for-profit and public sector organizations. The bottom line was to ensure that important services to the community were supported and that high-quality, career-related student jobs that would not otherwise be created would receive funding quickly. We took action there and accelerated the second round of project approvals and related funding decisions. In fact, we then called every organization that was either in the public or not-for-profit sector that had an eligible application under Canada summer jobs that had received funding under the former summer career placement program and had not identified or found alternative sources of funding. We were responsive to the concerns and we're confident that the initiative objectives that I outlined at the beginning of my remarks will continue to be met.

The Canada summer jobs program was designed to ensure students get the best-quality work experience, and the second round of project approvals will continue to ensure students receive worthwhile work experience. But of course, we're already in the conversation about lessons learned within the department, which you wouldn't be surprised about.

We've learned some lessons from our experience. For example, we have been reminded that not-for-profit organizations needed time to adjust to new program criteria, application processes and requirements to be able to submit applications of the required quality.

There's no doubt, though, that we listened and we responded quickly. We're going to continue to listen as we work with employers to finalize the job offers.

Let me return to the issue of funding, because I know that many of you will have questions about the program funding. I want to explain to you or reinforce that we are still in the early stages of implementing this program. We have many thousands of agreements that are in the process of being negotiated right now. As a result, it is impossible to put an exact figure on the cost of this program right now. As I mentioned earlier, exact funding will not be known until the end of the summer, because employers sometimes don't fill the positions that they apply for or offer them for as long as they originally intended. In some other situations, employers find alternative funding.

In conclusion, the Canada summer jobs program is a new initiative. It was designed to reflect a strong economy and a dynamic labour market. The program faced some challenges. We responded, and we will benefit from the lessons learned. The Canada summer jobs program was designed to ensure students get the jobs they need to help them succeed as students and prepare for future careers.

Thank you very much for your attention.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Ms. Charette.

We're now going to start with five-minute rounds of questions. We're going to start with Mr. Savage and work our way around. I believe we'll have time for two rounds of questions today.

Mr. Savage, five minutes, please.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank you for coming today as per our request to discuss this. I appreciate the acknowledgement of the mistakes that have been made in this program. I think we've certainly seen them at the community level. I don't accept that they were inevitable. Many of us had warned that these new criteria were going to be difficult for not-for-profits, but we certainly don't blame the bureaucrats in this process. Some ministers in the government have blamed the bureaucrats.

9:10 a.m.

An hon. member

A point of order.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Is that a point of order?

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

No, I don't believe so, Mr. Savage.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I'm just looking for a headline that I can show you that verifies that. Perhaps I'll come back to that.

This program has caused a lot of concern in the not-for-profit community and for students, and it begs questions like this. If, for example, the purpose was to take out the large corporations, why wasn't that other money reallocated, as opposed to being chopped out of the program?

I want to ask you, first of all, how much money has been allocated so far on the Canada summer jobs program, and how much of that came in the last couple of weeks, as opposed to the initial funding allocations?

9:10 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Janice Charette

I want to go back and acknowledge something you said in your opening remarks around the mistakes that have been made.

I think what I would suggest to you is that as we implemented this program, which is a new program, for the first time, we were trying to adapt going forward. So I think there were some consequences that were unanticipated and we tried to move quickly to react to those.

On the question you asked, I tried to address some of that in my opening remarks in terms of exactly the funding that's been allocated. Because this is a program that is administered across the country and there are somewhere in the range of 20,000 different contributions and agreements that are currently in the process of being negotiated, I can tell you with certainty that the budget for the program is $85.9 million, but the actual funding commitments that are being made are in the process of changing basically every day. It is a combination of the agreements that are being negotiated as a result of the first round of funding decisions and the second.

So I can't give you an accurate, reliable--

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

The reason I asked you is I have a letter here that deals with youth at risk that was sent to an organization that applied in my riding. It says:

Your application was assessed and received a rating of 23 out of a total of 70. It did not rank high enough to be in the list of assessed applications to be funded. Since the demand exceeded the budget, we are unable to offer you CSJ funding....

A week later, when a fuss was raised, they got the funding. They came to see me and this issue was raised in the House and everywhere else. And that seems to be the case more often than not.

So my question is this. How much was actually allocated, and how much then came back after people realized that this was a mistake? Just in general terms, if you could even give me a percentage, I'd be okay with that.

9:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Janice Charette

How we would go about managing a program like this is we would look at a budget and say $85.9 million. The first round of funding decisions was within that $85.9 million. What happens in this kind of a program, though, and it's happened in the past as well, is that as we make a first round of funding commitments, employers come back to us and they say “Well, we actually can't use six students, we can only use four”, so we--

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

And a year has passed. But that's a very small amount, usually. In my riding, that would be one or two jobs in the entire riding. This is totally different, obviously. This is scores and scores of not-for-profits, and our concern, the reason we want the information.... And I don't accept the privacy argument that was given to this committee last week.

In years past, when it was more at the local control, whether you agree that MPs should be the ones making decisions or not, I understand that point of view from both sides. We knew back in May of last year who was going to be funded in our riding and who was denied. I don't see why we shouldn't know that same information in our ridings. As parliamentarians who represent the people in our constituency, I don't know why we can't have that information. It seems basic to me.

I'm going to give you a chance.

How much time do I have, Chair?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You have a minute and a half.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

This is the headline in The Daily News, Halifax: “Civil servants to blame for summer jobs cuts: minister”, and that was Minister Peter MacKay, which I think is the height of abdication of responsibility. I don't think that's the case at all. This was a political decision.

So my question then goes back to giving me some percentage, if you could, respectfully asked. How many of these jobs were allocated, or dollars, initially, and how much came about in a sincere attempt to fix a program that was politically hacked?

9:15 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Janice Charette

Again, there were a number of points made before you got to the end question.

One fact that might be of interest, Mr. Savage, regarding your comment about how that would be two jobs instead of one job in my riding is that one of the challenges in terms of our being able to come and give you the kind of information you're looking for at this point is that we're comparing to a program last year that was completed. I can look at last year and tell you what happened, because we have the data from the end of the summer. We're in the process of rolling this out, so I am going to try, to the best of my ability, to answer your question.

As I was saying in response to the earlier question, what we did is what we would normally do in a program. We would allocate up to the budget, in terms of the first round of funding decisions, against the criteria that were put in place for this program. So up to $77.3 million for the not-for-profit sector was allocated on the same basis as was in place last year by province and by territory, and for the public and private sector the remaining $8.6 million.

But as we go through, then, and speak to the employers, and they come back to us and say no, they're not actually going to use that many positions and so on, we then have an opportunity to commit additional dollars. As well, it is the case that when we make a commitment at the beginning of the year, in May, for instance, by the time the end of the summer rolls around we know that we won't have spent the full budget, for whatever reason—the student may have left; they weren't able to actually attract the student. So we over-commit the budget in order to ensure that we try to fully spend the budget.

Sorry, I have just one more point, if you'll indulge me.

In the course of last year, I'm told that actually we were making funding commitments continuing into mid-July, which obviously is not preferred, given the fact that we're into the summer and these are positions for students. So that's what I mean that as additional dollars become available we'll go out and make new commitments.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I appreciate that. You get a lot more time than I do at this committee this morning, so I just want to close off.

The concern about not being able to find out what happened in our riding is a significant concern for a parliamentarian, especially when in the House of Commons the minister stands up, he has the lists, we know Conservative MPs have lists in their riding, the lists exist, and the minister will spout off who got grants in our riding, but he won't tell us, as MPs. Most of us know, because we're close enough to the ground to understand that, but we need to know that information. That is part of doing the job of being a member of Parliament.

I don't hold you responsible. I thank you for coming here today. But somebody's responsible. They're not in the room today—well, maybe four of them, but not the head one.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay, we're going to move now to the next round.

We have Madame Bonsant. We're going to have five minutes, please.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

Good morning, mesdames.

Here's the first question I wanted to ask you. Ms. Charette, were you responsible for the Summer Career Placement Program?

9:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Janice Charette

I wasn't deputy minister of this department last year.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

Which means that you arrived this year, with the new changes.

9:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Janice Charette

Pardon me, madam. I arrived in the department in July 2006, midway through the program, if I may put it that way.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

Did you take part with the minister in developing eligibility criteria, or what I call the “Solberg points”, concerning the new organizations that were supposed to be entitled to that money for Canada Summer Jobs?

9:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Janice Charette

Yes, I took part in discussions with the minister to establish the program objectives and also to establish the criteria that will be used to evaluate the proposals.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC

We tabled 14 recommendations in the House. Have you considered the 14 recommendations that we adopted here in the committee, in which the word “crime” was not at all mentioned in encouraging people to hire youths? I think the term “crime” is unsuitable. It wasn't criminals we were hiring; it was youths we wanted to help. I want to know whether you are going to take the 14 recommendations into account next time.

9:20 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

Janice Charette

Could you repeat your question?