Human Resources Committee on March 31st, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Dr. Lynk.

We're out of time. We're going to move to the next round. Mr. Vellacott, five minutes, please.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I appreciate the discussion, and I think all of us who have worked with children over the years.... Some have children and grandchildren. I appreciate Andrew's reference to a child who has some health difficulties now and then; it must be difficult. But I do want to quickly get some background here, because I think that actually does add when we bring these personal experiences in, so I'll ask direct questions to Jody and Leilani as well.

Are you a mom, have a family, kids, several children?

[Jody Dallaire]

Yes, I have two sons. One is 14. He is out of child care. I have a 10-year-old son as well, yes.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

So they keep your life full, I'm sure.

Leilani, you have a family, children?

[Leilani Farha]

I have two children. One is three and one is five, and they are not in public school.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

So they are in a child care situation.

In my case, I have children and grandchildren as well.

As we come to these areas, after hearing a little bit of the testimony, I want you to respond to this. I'm sure this is not what we mean to convey, but sometimes when I hear testimony, even again today, some of the citations in terms of our having to absolutely increase to x numbers or whatever--I guess we all have different numbers there--of women in the workforce, it does give an impression, and I think you'll understand what I'm saying here, that unless a woman is always out in the paid workforce or unless she is there at the current time to add to whatever that percentage in the workforce might be, there's something inferior about that: if a woman is not in the paid workforce. And I've had women tell me this.

You made comments here today, and I don't know that you meant that, but I need to probe that a bit with you.

I have a wife who has been in the paid workforce and has been out of it, and hopefully she doesn't feel at all demeaned or diminished at points when she's not able to be in the paid workforce. I have a daughter now--

[A voice]

None of us said that.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Sure. I'll tell you in a second whether it's a point of order or not.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Okay. I would really strongly suggest to the member that he make no personal remarks to the witnesses. The witnesses are here professionally, and their personal life is their own business. I would really suggest that these remarks be withdrawn.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I have asked questions. My questions right now are in respect to comments that were made--

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Continue.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

On that question, then. A young mom who now presently is at home taking care of her children, doing the best she can during that period of time--is that an acceptable choice for her to be making at that juncture? Do you have a problem with that?

[Jody Dallaire]

Absolutely not. I don't have a problem with that.

As for the reason I joined the child care advocacy movement as the volunteer chairperson of the Child Care Advocacy Association of Canada, this is true with many moms I've met in the community: our roles change as our children grow.

I know many moms personally, and many moms in our community and across Canada. We've been stay-at-home moms when our children were at a young age. We've chosen to work part-time when that best met our family's needs. Some of us have chosen to work full-time. But what has been absent in all of those roles as we've changed is available and affordable programs, such as drop-in centres, part-time care, or full-time care, because we don't have a national strategy to meet women's needs in all of their roles and to meet the child development needs of our children.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Thank you. I appreciate that. I think that needs to come across, if I can be so humble as to suggest this, in terms of remarks, public and otherwise, that the choice of those gals or you at that particular time is a valid choice and a good choice. I think that needs to be more publicly acknowledged, because sometimes the impression I get from talking to women is that they don't feel that choice is much respected or recognized and honoured in our country.

Go ahead, Ms. Farha.

[Leilani Farha]

I think you've used the perfect word. I think that what we're on about is that word, which is “choice”, but we expect, and the government has an obligation to ensure, that women have real choices. When women are offered twelve hundred bucks over the course of a year in terms of a child care benefit, we have to ask ourselves, and you have to ask yourselves, are you creating choices for women? I think that's up for a big question at this point.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Okay. Exactly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

You have 10 seconds.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Very quickly, then, this is to all three of you across the table.

A previous witness indicated that if the amounts could be increased, as you just in fact referred to.... But allowed that choice, then, you can put it into direct day care or into the possibility of an increased amount on income support so that you can have an aunt, a grandparent.... I appreciate that not everybody has that choice, as I think you implied in your response, but some may. Would you be open to that if those dollars increased, maybe with some going to direct child care places and maybe some in the way of a choice to have a grandparent or whoever do that child care?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're out of time. We're going to have to move on, in fairness to everybody, Maurice.

Mr. Nadeau, welcome.

You have five minutes. The floor is yours, sir.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Hello, Mrs. Dallaire, Ms. Farha and Mr. Lynk.

Ms. Farha, you stated that poverty in general is a systemic problem. We are in the midst of an economic crisis, which is hitting some areas harder than others. The optimists believe that it will last a few years; the realists believe it will last longer. We hope that the realists are wrong. We know what this crisis will do in terms of poverty.

We live in a society, in an economic system, that experienced a crisis in the 1930’s and that recovered after WWII. It is basically a capitalist system, where maximum profit is the religion. Those who manage to make a lot of money in this society are supposed to have the good will to spread it around among citizens. I am getting to the issue of state intervention. In any case, the state does intervene.

Canada’s oil companies are entitled to tax credits. We all agree that they are not the poorest in the family. As for the employment insurance fund, in the past ten years, over $57 million has been withdrawn and used for other purposes, rather than being paid to workers entitled to those monies in difficult times. Depriving workers of that money does not help in any way to eliminate poverty; it impoverishes them.

The state intervenes in other ways. Just think of the $3 billion discretionary fund that was just approved in the House of Commons by the Liberals and the Conservatives as part of the last budget. In English it has been called a slush fund—I do not know the exact French translation, but you know what I mean—and there is no primary accountability. You ask and you are given, that is all.

According to the statistics provided by Mr. Lynk, 17% of children live in poverty. I assume that is across Canada. Our children represent the future of this country. We do not talk about it a great deal, but we are aware that that is the reality.

Even if you work in a specific area you can contribute an answer. I will ask the question of our three witnesses: are there concrete and tangible solutions? There are 208 countries in the world and in a few weeks there will be 209. Can we suggest potential solutions to this government to which we all belong as legislators? Are there measures that, when we think about it, are obvious and have been proven to move things forward?

That is my question.

[Jody Dallaire]

That is a multi-faceted question and one that is difficult to answer. You mentioned that poverty is systemic, and that is true. Tackling this issue is very complicated. Child care services are just one means of dealing with the crisis.

You stated that we live in a market economy. That is true, but the market does not meet all the needs of citizens. The market has gaps, especially in child care services outside Quebec, an area with which I am very familiar.

Quebec recognized that the market would not deliver high-quality child care services needed by parents. The government had to intervene to acknowledge and tackle this problem. When the problem was acknowledged, the Quebec government introduced measures to deal with it. To date, federal governments have not been able to develop national policies with criteria applicable to provinces other than Quebec. They do not acknowledge the problems and do not know where to start in order to solve them.

The government of my province, New Brunswick, obviously will not tackle this issue without the federal government taking the lead. For example, we immediately think of reducing taxes. However, in New Brunswick, 40% of women and 27% of men do not pay taxes because their income is too low. Such measures will not solve the poverty crisis. Rather, we need to invest in programs that will benefit people. This data is similar across Canada.

When you consider that 38.7% of women, compared to 24.4% of men, in Canada do not pay taxes because their income is too low, it is clear that we must invest in programs that will support these people, not offer them tax cuts that do not meet their needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much. That's all the time we have.

We're going to move over to Mr. Lobb. We're not going to have a full round here. We have only a couple of minutes, because we have other business to take care of.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you for your time. I'll ask my questions quickly, and hopefully you can answer them quickly.

Ms. Dallaire, does your group have a costed plan for your ultimate vision for child care, and what is that?

[Jody Dallaire]

Absolutely, we do. MP Minna asked about it. It's called “From Patchwork to Framework”. It establishes benchmarks and timelines over a 15-year period, and I'll be providing that to the committee for your consideration.