Evidence of meeting #4 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Thompson  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Karen Kinsley  President, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Scott Streiner  Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada
Liliane Binette  Assistant Deputy Minister, Quebec Region, Service Canada
Karen Jackson  Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Social Development Canada
David MacDonald  Assistant Deputy Minister, Learning Branch, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada
Frank Fedyk  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy and Research, Department of Human Resources and Social Development

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

I'd like to call this meeting to order, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), for a briefing on budgetary measures.

I want to start by thanking the department. I realize there are times when we don't give anybody time to respond. We let you know about it Tuesday, probably late in the day, and here you are on Thursday. Thank you once again for jumping through hoops to get here to talk to us today.

We are going to be hearing from the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation. We have Karen Kinsley, who is the president. We're going to hear from you in a moment. Thank you.

Then I believe we are going to hear from Paul Thompson, associate assistant deputy minister for skills and employment branch of HRSDC. The rest are here to answer questions if need be.

Once again, we want to thank you for being here and taking the time to get ready for us today.

Each of you has a brief presentation. We'll hear those, and then we'll start our typical rounds of questioning.

Mr. Savage.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I'm delighted to have the officials here. I agree with you that we sometimes don't give them notice.

Is it normal that we would have speaking notes from the officials? We don't have as much time as I would like to ask questions. They are really here as a continuation of the appearance of the minister, who did give us introductory comments.

I wonder if we could go directly to questions.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

In fairness to them for taking time out of their day, I believe their comments are under five minutes each, so I don't think that will take up too much time.

I'll stop talking and let you guys start talking. Who wants to start?

Paul.

11:15 a.m.

Paul Thompson Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the human resources standing committee. I'm pleased to have this opportunity to appear before you today.

As noted, my name is Paul Thompson. I'm the associate assistant deputy minister for the skills and employment branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development.

Before I begin, I'd like to introduce the colleagues with me at the table who will be able to speak to various aspects of Budget 2009 and the budget implementation act.

David MacDonald is the assistant deputy minister for the learning branch at HRSDC. He'll be able to respond to questions pertaining to the Canada student loan program.

Scott Streiner is ADM of the labour program. He'll be able to speak to the wage earner protection program measure that was in Budget 2009.

Beside me is Liliane Binette, Assistant Deputy Minister for the HRSDC Quebec region. She'll be able to answer your questions on Service Canada's role concerning the implementation of measures contained in the budget and on service delivery in general.

While my colleagues will be able to speak to a broader range of issues, I will limit my introductory comments to the Canada Skills and Transition Strategy; the principles that will guide the implementation of these commitments; and how we plan to move forward.

While I'm not in a position to comment on the policy decisions around these measures, I will do my best to provide information, as will my colleagues, on the nature of these measures and the current plans for implementation.

As you heard from Minister Finley, Budget 2009 outlines an agenda to address the impacts of the current economic downturn. The government's economic action plan announced that Canada's skills and transition strategy would target those workers who are affected by the downturn. More specifically, the strategy provides $8.3 billion in various initiatives to help Canadians, which is designed to address the short-term challenges but also provide them with the necessary training to equip workers for the longer term.

The strategy aims to assist Canadians through a three-theme approach, and I can speak to each of these briefly: strengthening benefits for Canadian workers, enhancing the availability of training, and keeping employment insurance rates frozen.

The first section, on strengthening benefits for Canadian workers, focuses primarily on enhancements to the employment insurance program to help workers and their families. The key measures include an extension of the EI benefits to provide nationally the benefits that are currently available through the extended benefits pilot in highest unemployment regions in the country. This measure will also increase the maximum benefit duration from 45 weeks to 50 weeks. The estimated cost of this measure is $1.15 billion over two years. It will be implemented through the budget implementation act.

The following measure extends EI benefits for long-tenured workers participating in training. This measure will be implemented as a pilot project in collaboration with provinces and territories and provide eligible workers with a maximum of 104 weeks of EI benefits while they pursue longer term training, including up to 12 weeks to support job search. There's also a related measure which will allow earlier access to EI benefits for laid-off workers who choose to invest all or part of the separation payments in their own training. The estimated cost of these measures is $500 million over 2 years.

The anticipated impact of this measure is 40,000 individuals.

The next measure is that of extending the duration of work-sharing agreements by 14 weeks, to a maximum of 52 weeks, and allowing a greater access to work-sharing agreements through flexibility in the qualifying criteria. This is intended to avert layoffs and allow workers to continue working while companies experience a temporary slowdown. The estimated cost of this measure is $200 million over two years.

The next measure is the expansion of the wage earner protection program to cover unpaid severance and termination pay for up to a maximum of four weeks of maximum insurable earnings, as defined in the Employment Insurance Act. These elements are in addition to existing measures in the wage earner protection program that cover unpaid wages and vacation leave of workers from companies that have gone bankrupt or have entered into receivership. The estimated cost is $50 million over two years. My colleague Scott Streiner is here to speak further on this measure, if required.

Lastly in this section, I'll just note the intention to create an expert panel to consult Canadians on how best to provide maternity and parental benefits for the self-employed.

The next thematic area in the budget is that of enhancing the availability of training for Canadian workers through a variety of measures. First is increased funding of $1 billion over two years through the employment insurance program for training delivered by provinces and territories through labour market development agreements. This measure will be relatively straightforward to implement, since funding will flow through existing agreements with provinces and territories, under which they will receive funding to deliver and develop training programs. The estimated impact of this measure is approximately 100,000 individuals over two years.

The other measure in this category is the creation of a new strategic training and transition fund to support the needs of individuals affected by the downturn. This measure is designed to be flexible to meet diverse circumstances across regions, and can be used for clients whether or not they are eligible for employment insurance. This fund will be administered through labour market agreements, which include provisions for public reporting and accountability. The estimated cost is $500 million over two years. The anticipated impact is roughly 50,000 claimants.

Another measure in this area is enhancements to the existing Canada summer jobs program to enable more job opportunities in the not-for-profit sector. The estimated cost is $20 million over two years.

There is a one-time grant to the YM-YWCA to support youth internships for not-for-profit and community services. The amount dedicated to this is $15 million.

As well, there are additional investments in the targeted initiative for older workers. This includes an expansion of the initiative to include more vulnerable cities with populations of less than 250,000. The estimated cost for this measure is $60 million over three years.

The next one is the apprenticeship completion grant. We'll be offering $2,000 to apprentices who successfully complete their training in any red seal trade. This completion grant complements the existing apprenticeship incentive grant, which is valued at $1,000. This is a measure that will cost $40 million per year, with 20,000 apprentices per year being eligible.

The next measure involves plans to develop a national foreign qualification recognition framework in partnership with provinces and territories to support the recognition of credentials for new Canadians. The estimated cost of this measure is $50 million.

Next is a combination of two measures to support aboriginal skills development and training. The first measure is additional investments in the existing aboriginal skills and employment partnership program to foster partnerships among aboriginal organizations, employers, provincial and territorial governments. This investment is $100 million over three years. The estimated impact is roughly 6,000 jobs for aboriginal Canadians. The second measure in terms of aboriginal training is a new aboriginal skills and training strategic investment fund that will focus on training for specific jobs and set the stage for a new aboriginal labour market program. This fund will have a cost of $75 million over two years, and will have an estimated impact of 6,000 jobs for aboriginal Canadians. Both of these measures will target first nations, Métis, and Inuit people.

Lastly, the third theme is on keeping employment insurance rates frozen. The premium rate will be maintained at $1.73 per $100 of insurable earnings for 2009 and for 2010. The 2009 rate was set in November. The 2010 rate will be established in the budget implementation act. The Canada Employment Insurance Financing Board will be setting premiums on a break-even basis beginning in 2011.

In order to deliver on these commitments, we are guided by a number of key principles, the first of which is timeliness. A majority of these measures are temporary, but we are building on existing mechanisms to expedite the implementation and get the money flowing quickly.

The next principle is ensuring that they're targeted to those workers most affected by the economic downturn, such as people who have worked in an industry for a long time and may need skills upgrading or require transition to new employment, or lower-skilled workers with limited labour force attachment.

As far as the temporary implementation is concerned, the majority of budget 2009 commitments are time-limited and build on existing initiatives, both federal and provincial/territorial. Provinces and territories designed and deliver many labour market programs, and we will work with them to ensure that the investments flow to Canadians quickly.

And finally, on the matter of smart risk management, we fully recognize the importance of effective reporting and accountability. This will involve regular on going monitoring of progress and outcomes. We will align our program reporting with the government-wide reporting plans.

There are a number of measures I have mentioned that still require the appropriate authorities, legislative, regulatory, or internal approvals. We plan to move swiftly with the implementation and have them in place at various points in the spring.

In conclusion, I hope this outline of the key elements of the Canada skills and transition strategy gives you an overview of the measures that we will implement to provide support to workers during the economic downturn.

At this time, I will turn things over to Karen Kinsley, president of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, who will provide you with an overview of the housing initiatives in the budget implementation act.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Mr. Thompson.

Now we'll move to Ms. Kinsley.

11:25 a.m.

Karen Kinsley President, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I am pleased to appear before the committee to talk about the role of Canada Mortgage and Housing in support of Canada's economic action plan.

To begin, I will introduce my colleague, Doug Stewart, who is the vice-president of policy and planning for CMHC.

In Canada, the housing needs of 80% of Canadians are met through the marketplace. For those Canadians who need some help to find housing they can afford, the Government of Canada, through CMHC, provides $1.7 billion each year in support of some 630,000 existing social housing households.

In September of 2008, the government committed more than $1.9 billion over five years to improve and build new affordable housing and to help the homeless. Building on this, Canada's economic action plan will invest a further $2 billion over two years to build new social housing and repair and energy-retrofit existing social housing.

These investments will improve the quality of life for low-income households, Aboriginal Canadians, seniors, persons with disabilities and people living in the North.

The measures announced in Canada's economic action plan include a one-time investment of $1 billion to renovate existing older social housing projects and upgrade them to meet modern energy efficiency and accessibility standards. Provinces and territories will be requested to cost-share this funding on a fifty-fifty basis.

Because safe and affordable housing is also critical for seniors and persons with disabilities, $475 million is being invested for new social housing for low-income seniors and people with disabilities. This will assist Canadians on fixed incomes to live with independence and dignity, and remain in their communities close to family and friends. It will also provide persons with disabilities with housing that is accessible and meets their needs.

Canada's economic action plan also provides $600 million to build new social housing and to repair and modernize existing social housing in first nation communities and in Canada's far north. This funding includes $400 million for housing on reserve and $200 million for the three territories. The Yukon and the Northwest Territories will receive $50 million each, while the remaining $100 million will be allocated to Nunavut, where the need for social housing is greatest.

CMHC and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada will work with first nations to move forward on these important initiatives. Funding will be delivered through existing delivery mechanisms to ensure a quick start to construction and renovation work.

We know that housing builds strong communities, and these communities need strong infrastructure to survive. Canada's economic action plan provides up to $2 billion in direct low-cost loans to municipalities over two years through CMHC for housing-related infrastructure projects in towns and cities across the country.

There will be a focus on funding projects that are shovel-ready, as this is a targeted, short-term, temporary measure intended to create jobs quickly. The types of eligible projects include sewers, water lines and neighbourhood regeneration projects.

Canada's action plan also includes measures that support home ownership and the housing sector. Through the insured mortgage purchase program, CMHC will take further steps to ensure there is stable long-term funding to lenders, allowing them to continue lending to Canadian consumers and businesses.

Merci, monsieur le président.

I would welcome your questions.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Ms. Kinsley.

We are going to move to the first round of seven minutes each. We'll start with the Liberal Party.

Ms. Minna, go ahead, please, for seven minutes.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I want to focus on the whole issue of pay equity. Mr. Streiner may be more equipped to give us some information and some clarification on that.

Basically, there are three major restrictions in the new bill. Despite the comments from the government that it mirrors the Ontario system, it actually does anything but.

The first restriction is that it will limit the number of female-predominant groups that can claim pay equity to 70%, which means if the predominance of women working in a certain section is under 70%, then they're cut out. The current number is 55%. This, by the way, applies only to government employees and not to the crown. They are not being affected at all and are excluded altogether.

It defines the criteria used to evaluate whether women's work is of equal value by introducing the market forces. I don't see what market forces have to do with comparing equal pay for work of equal value. It will limit the comparisons of family within, but that's another piece. Then it goes on to say that the pay equity will be negotiated along with the issues raised during the collective bargaining.

In this legislation there is no obligation on the employer to actually do pay equity assessments. There is no obligation on the employer to share relevant information with the union. There is no obligation for a remedy for equity gaps. This is not proactive pay equity legislation. There is nothing that forces them to do anything.

Also, it removes proactive employment equity from the human rights framework. Workers in the public service can no longer file complaints to the CHRC. Individual workers can file a complaint with the labour relations board, but that doesn't have any real expertise in this area. Essentially the complaints are left to an individual. If a union tries to help, they charge $50,000.

All of these provisions make matters so much worse than they really are. They do not help in any way.

I would like to know on what basis these changes were made. On what basis do we claim that this is the Ontario model when there's absolutely nothing here that resembles the Ontario model? What was the rationale in going from 55% to 70% in the labour market, and all of the things I've said?

It really is very detrimental to women. It actually makes it worse than the current system. Is there anyone who can give me an understanding of why we're going in this direction and why it's better?

11:35 a.m.

Scott Streiner Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Program, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada

I'm afraid that because the changes you've noted to the pay equity regime apply to the public sector, those are questions that are more appropriately directed to the President of the Treasury Board and his officials. The Minister of Labour has a mandate for pay equity with respect to private sector employers, but those employers are unaffected by the changes in the budget.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

I see.

Mr. Chair, with the consensus of this committee, we really need to bring the Treasury Board representatives here to go through these things, because the changes that are being made are major. They do not in any way improve women's conditions in pay equity and accessibility to pay equity. In fact, they make that worse.

We hear in the House all the time about how we have 25 years of waiting because of the litigious situation under human rights. Unfortunately, the system being proposed does nothing to improve that and in fact makes it worse. It excludes people, it excludes the crown corporation employees, and it's only limited to one.

If there is no one here who can actually give me an answer or at least an explanation, I would ask through you, Mr. Chair, that we ask the Treasury Board representatives to come to this committee. This is a major issue that needs to be addressed. We need to get some clarification on it.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay. What I'll suggest is that maybe under new business at some point, if you want to bring forward a motion to have it discussed by the committee as a whole, we can look at it. Is that okay?

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Okay. I can't bring the motion now, as I don't want to interrupt the hearings, but I'll leave it to my colleagues. Maybe at the end of the meeting they would put the motion so that we in fact do have the Treasury Board president or his representatives come to the next meeting. It is really critical that we deal with this issue. It is affecting women tremendously. It is a major demarcation from what we have and it is not improving the situation.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay. We'll look at that under new business.

You still have a minute left.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you. I'd like to share it with my colleague.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

One minute? Thank you, Chair. You are most generous.

Perhaps, then, I'll ask my first question and come back. I want to talk about employment insurance. I want to ask how much research was done.

How much can you share with us on employment insurance as stimulus, on adding five weeks at the end versus eliminating the waiting period or increasing access? Can you share with us some information that indicates why that five weeks is justified over some other ways to improve employment insurance?

11:35 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Paul Thompson

I'm not in a position to comment on the policy choices that were made between different measures, but I would indicate that, as noted in my remarks, the estimated cost associated with the extension of the five weeks is $1.15 billion over two years. That would be the amount of stimulus, if you will, that would be associated with that.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you. I don't want an opinion. I understand you.

Was that the bell?

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Yes.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I'll come back to this.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

We will come back to you.

Mr. Lessard, sir, you have seven minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the departmental staff for being here this morning to answer our questions.

The budget and figures are really your specialty. What budget envelope was set aside for TIOW for the past two years?

11:35 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Paul Thompson

I think that you're referring to the initiative for the workers.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Yes, I'm referring to the Targeted Initiative for older workers that goes by the acronym TIOW.

11:35 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Paul Thompson

The budget contains a funding increase for the Targeted Initiative for older workers.

11:35 a.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

How much was allocated from the budget for the past two years?