Evidence of meeting #41 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mental.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvia Hall  Director and Treasurer, Canadian Pensioners Concerned Inc.
Colin Hughes  Social Worker, Community Development and Prevention Program, Children's Aid Society of Toronto
Patricia Cummings-Diaz  Co-Chair, FOR Women's Autonomy, Rights and Dignity (FORWARD)
Diana Capponi  Coordinator of Employment Works!, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
Diana Summers  Manager of Policy, Research and Government Relations, Ontario Non-Profit Housing Association
Steven Christianson  Manager, Government Relations and Advocacy, Ontario March of Dimes

2:30 p.m.

Co-Chair, FOR Women's Autonomy, Rights and Dignity (FORWARD)

Patricia Cummings-Diaz

As long as we don't have to keep on coming back here and talking about poverty.... Let's just end it. Do you know what I mean? If we get it into the Charter of Rights that you protect us so that this never happens again.... It's billions of dollars that we're going cost us just on health care alone.

You take work from the working class for two years and you have a mental health issue. That's one of the saddest things. Instead of defining us as unemployed, we became defined as chronically depressed, bipolar, etc. Then there are all the medications, which is another thing that came up when I did this study last year with the drop-in centres: cannabis.

Many of the women who were originally told to take these psychotropic drugs were vomiting and having extreme difficulty with them. Their choice was to turn to cannabis. Now, of course, we have little grannies walking along seedy alleys trying to get their medication. A number of women who have taken that over the last 13 years have multiple kinds of health care problems. You can't take that stuff without hurting another part of your body.

To either prohibit or at least include.... Post-traumatic stress, I think, is how you can define what we're going through. There are eating disorders, sleeping disorders, and the anxieties. When you get on welfare, you are caught in a system of going to the welfare office and trying to get your cheque and then going to food banks. It becomes a little culture in itself. A cigarette is actually an economy. I lived in those shelters. There's everything in there.

When I was in Kitchener, the poor kids were the hookers. As for Children's Aid, I mean, who's the parent here? These were the hookers in that place. In sitting down and talking with them, I can tell you, if you want access to pedophiles, let's use these young girls. We have a wealth of information that can help Canadian society. I had no idea that this happens.

I had no idea that the lower you go down in your work, the worse your paycheque is and the more you get abused. When I worked for that American company in doing market research, you had to talk a lot and you needed to drink. If you go to the washroom, it's deducted from your cheque. There are no rules for us because nobody really looks at it.

You give us a guaranteed income and then we have something to start off with. We can begin to heal. We can begin to dream again. That's what we all have to do. This is a mess, but we've been in messes before, and we can get out of it.

Home ownership is absolutely necessary. Expand Canada Mortgage and Housing. For your public housing, you can clean it up and give people the opportunity to buy into that. They now have money, so it's not subsidized anymore, and we don't have to be constantly wrapped up in things.

Did you know one of the reasons that houses in public housing are so ugly? I lived in them. If you get in there and plant a garden with flowers everywhere, or if you do anything inside the house, when you leave they tear it all apart. For 30 years we could have had beautiful places, but because of the policies there, they rip it all out and you go into the same ugly thing that somebody else was in. If you actually have a good time and you're able to fix the basement, which is empty, they rip all that out. What sense does that make? It takes away the whole ambience of a community.

It's great to walk through those little communities. You can smell the Jamaican food. You can smell somebody else's food. There is a real chance to really make that work.

2:35 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Diana, I really liked your story. It sounds like, to some degree, that you were able to find what Patricia is talking about, which is a community where you belonged, that cared for you, a home that you could feel safe in and proud of and secure in. That was the launching pad for you.

2:35 p.m.

Coordinator of Employment Works!, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Diana Capponi

That and Canada Student Loans gave me an ability to go back to school. I was very fortunate. In preparing for today, I was thinking back to the programs I was able to take advantage of, which largely don't exist anymore.

The waiting list for housing is awful and often the housing is awful. Sorry, but even within the non-profit sector for my community, I still have people who are paying rent in rooming houses and boarding houses who are kicked out at 8:30 in the morning and not allowed to return until dinnertime. That's still going on in this city. Their rights are being totally taken away. They are stripped of any rights.

When it comes to mental health or addiction, having a mental health label is probably the worst label a person can have, and you're probably guaranteed to face more discrimination in employment and in housing. You can't even get a general practitioner to take you as a patient. I get calls from family members across this country. Some have moved from province to province trying to get care for their children who have mental health difficulties. GPs just won't take them on. There's a myriad of issues.

I know how much I benefited from those programs and I'm nothing special. I know other people who benefited back 28 or 29 years ago. We need to go back. I felt really supported going to school. I was a lone mother. I had wonderful housing. I had a wonderful community.

2:40 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

What year was that, Diana?

2:40 p.m.

Coordinator of Employment Works!, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Diana Capponi

It was in 1983-84.

2:40 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

When the Government of Ontario reduced welfare by 21.6%, they also made it a criminal act to be on welfare and get a student loan to go back to school to better yourself.

2:40 p.m.

Coordinator of Employment Works!, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Diana Capponi

Yes. Isn't that silly?

2:40 p.m.

NDP

Tony Martin NDP Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Just quickly, Sylvia, you were suggesting that we really don't need to talk much more about measuring poverty and that we should actually get at doing it and fixing it.

2:40 p.m.

Director and Treasurer, Canadian Pensioners Concerned Inc.

Sylvia Hall

Yes. I assume that as a committee you're getting a lot of concrete, specific suggestions across the country. I hope your work won't disappear into a study on the shelf.

2:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thanks, Sylvia.

We're now going to move to Mr. Lobb.

You have seven minutes, sir.

June 2nd, 2009 / 2:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Thanks again.

My first question is for Ms. Summers. You talked a bit about asset building for the most vulnerable. There is the general thought, and my colleagues have mentioned this as well, that for people at the margin it's a possibility, but for the poorest of the poor, asset building is a dream. How do we start to build assets for the most vulnerable?

2:40 p.m.

Manager of Policy, Research and Government Relations, Ontario Non-Profit Housing Association

Diana Summers

Right now, the proposal that is circulating is for the people who are close to being able to move into home ownership. For the people you are talking about, I think that a house, a safe home, allows people to get a job or to access other things in the community. It starts the process.

For me, affordable housing is the answer. It allows people to start. It's the bedrock beneath our feet, if you will, a safe, secure, stable, and nice place.

2:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

That being said, at what point do you go from being a person who is just getting housing to someone who starts to build assets? Is there a threshold? Is there a number? How would someone know that now it's time to start building an asset?

2:40 p.m.

Manager of Policy, Research and Government Relations, Ontario Non-Profit Housing Association

Diana Summers

We are in a partnership with Home Ownership Alternatives, and they are developing a program like that with targets. I haven't seen it yet, but people would get assistance with their mortgage. Then, as their income goes up, the assistance goes down, and it translates into equity. Again, I haven't seen the figures. It's not new in other parts of Canada and it's not new in other parts of the world. It is new in Ontario, but not elsewhere.

2:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Ms. Capponi, could you just describe your thoughts or some thoughts around the transition and mental health? Obviously, income is a very important component of being in mental health or out of mental health. You mentioned affordable housing. What other tools are there with which the federal government can help people who are faced with mental health and addiction issues?

2:40 p.m.

Coordinator of Employment Works!, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Diana Capponi

It used to be, some time ago, that the federal government provided assistance to employers. You had a Canadian accommodation network that employers could contact to get advice around workplace accommodations.

Around 47% of all leaves of absence from the workplace today in Canada are related to mental health and addiction. That's, like, shocking: 47%. Employers don't know how to accommodate, so people lose jobs. For a lot of people who have to leave the workforce due to mental health or addiction challenges, with the discrimination and stigma they face coming back to work, really, a lot of people don't go back to work. So we have a very low success rate.

That's something that I would see as helpful, because I see those folks, and--

2:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Would I be able to interrupt you for a second?

2:40 p.m.

Coordinator of Employment Works!, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

2:40 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

I'd like to go back to a point you just touched on. We had a Dr. Kirby here from the Mental Health Commission, and he too mentioned something along that line. Obviously, if you are working somewhere and you get injured, the system is set up for you to rehabilitate yourself physically, yet there is really not a system that is for exactly what you mentioned, a mental health issue at a work site.

Is there another way that we could do that? I mean, we can't break everybody out, but definitely this is an issue for the workplace. There's a cost to society, too, and it's hurtful to the people who are experiencing the issues.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

2:45 p.m.

Coordinator of Employment Works!, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

Diana Capponi

I think continuing to support the work of the Mental Health Commission would be great. Again, whatever type of resources for employers--I'm talking all employers, from small business right up to huge corporations--the employers need that advice.

In terms of extending the EI medical benefits, I think it's 15 weeks now. That's for someone who's going through a first episode or has just become ill. Often it takes months--years, actually--for doctors to find the right diagnosis and therefore the right medication. People really suffer through that timeframe. Then you have this huge employment gap on your resume. Things just get worse and worse.

So extending the medical leave for people to a six-month level, I think, gives a person a better chance to return to work healthy. If we had resources available for employers on accommodation, on mental health--if we helped employers increase what I call mental health literacy--they could detect when employees were in trouble. There are so many things that we could be doing that we're not doing.

I'm glad I got that EI thing in there.

2:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

Good. That's a big help, thanks. That's why you're here today.

Just to conclude--I think my time is likely running short--you made a comment, Ms. Cummings-Diaz, that kind of intrigued me. You mentioned, if I can quote you right, that the poor were used in the market economy.

2:45 p.m.

Co-Chair, FOR Women's Autonomy, Rights and Dignity (FORWARD)

Patricia Cummings-Diaz

No. It just seems that we're expected....

The market economy ebbs and flows, and we can't survive under that kind of stuff. Somebody comes in with another idea and then, between that and political agendas, we get squished.

I mean, single mothers were literally called out as...all kinds of derogatory terms. I lived that. I had a friend who said that a nice guy came to her door with a $20 bill and a condom. That's the kind of stuff that was happening with housing.

You can read my report. A lot of the women in the drop-in centres were older women. I'd say they were anywhere from 35 to 65, but we certainly had a couple of women who were 80.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON

On the guaranteed income suggestion, is there a timeline on that? Is there a timeframe? Is this something that is on in perpetuity, or is this something that is transitional?

2:45 p.m.

Co-Chair, FOR Women's Autonomy, Rights and Dignity (FORWARD)

Patricia Cummings-Diaz

I think because of the state that we're in right now, if there's anything we need, we need money in our hands. We can't be living in the places where we're living. We can't be continuing to eat that kind of food.

Yes, a guaranteed income, absolutely; I really think that would boost the economy.