Human Resources Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I want to get at that group, because it's a group I remember very vividly from last time. When you mention youth in transition, I know what it means, but I was also looking at these others.

I want to now go for a moment to Patricia Cummings-Diaz.

You've given us some terrific information. I just want to put something down. I was just talking to some of our colleagues at lunch—to Mr. Ouellet, actually. We were talking about the myriad of programs that exists when you add up all of the national, provincial, and municipal programs and about what it costs to administer all of the various income support programs and other programs.

I think what you're telling us is, “give us a guaranteed income supplement”, which would include.... And I think you're putting the seniors in there as well, because to get GIS right now means to be somewhat impoverished. It needs to be strengthened. You're saying, give us a guaranteed income supplement as opposed to welfare or targeting us in one way or another, which is very punitive--I agree with you.

Is that what you're saying? To roll it into one thing?

[Patricia Cummings-Diaz]

Yes, because the band-aid things.... I mean, how many times have you met within the last 50 years? I think when MacDonald met, sometime in the eighties, he got paid $600 a day for doing it, while a single person on welfare was getting $19. We're kind of tired of all of this.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Would you roll EI in there or would you leave it separate?

[Patricia Cummings-Diaz]

For example, for a single adult, I believe it's $24,000 a year. If a person can be assured of that.... I was talking with people I worked with, who said, “Well, so then we get taxed after that?” I said yes, and they said that's fair. You have to see the conditions that we've been left in after 13 years of this.

We need help. You have to be able to guarantee full health benefits. I found that going to a doctor was a waste of time, which is a whole other issue. The number of women—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Because then you can't do what he says you need to do.

[Patricia Cummings-Diaz]

No. Basically you go in, get your prescription, and leave. With a naturopath it's an hour, which is more comprehensive.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm sorry, but I'm out of time. If there is any time later, I'll come back to Ms. Capponi, because I had some questions for her as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

I'd like you to know that if you need headsets for translation, now is a good time to put them on. Mr. Ouellet is going to ask all his questions in French.

Mr. Ouellet, the floor is yours.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Summers, earlier you said that the federal government should also keep those funds realized from the expiration of operating agreements earmarked to social housing. This, you said, would mean providing nearly $11 billion in funding for housing without requiring the federal government to increase its spending. Where did you come up with this figure of $11 billion?

[Diana Summers]

Those are not our office's numbers. As I understand it, the number across Canada is closer to $33 billion, with $11 billion as Ontario's share. This is the money that is spent right now by the federal government under the social housing operating agreements that will expire gradually up until 2033, so it's a total figure.

Over the next 30 years, the obligations of the federal government to fund social housing will drop by just over $60 billion. That withdrawal of subsidy is linked to the date when the housing provider's mortgage is paid off: as the mortgage is paid off, the subsidy decreases.

For us, it's both a concrete lack of dollars and, more significantly, the ongoing viability of some of the providers that comes into question. We would ask that you look at that as potentially one way of staying involved in social housing.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

Earlier, you stated that people were waiting anywhere from 5 to 21 years for affordable housing. You also said that in order to meet the timeframes, sustained funding was required to ensure long-term viability of housing. How level of funding would be required in Ontario alone to meet the needs of people who have been waiting anywhere from 5 to 21 years?

[Diana Summers]

I don't think anyone in my organization has put a figure to that. As I said, I would start with the $11 billion. Whatever funds there are for us, the important thing is to state what you want, come up with the outcomes, and fund it on an ongoing basis so there are no surprises and people can manage and accomplish efficiencies. I don't have a dollar—

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

You don't have that figure.

[Diana Summers]

No.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

To come back to this $11 billion--

Excusez-moi.

The $11 billion is not for new housing. It would merely be to keep existing housing in a proper state of repair. Is that correct?

[Diana Summers]

Yes, absolutely.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

So then, you would need additional funds for new housing. Are you aware that CMHC is currently sitting on a reserve fund of close to $10 billion? That money could be used to build new housing units.

[Diana Summers]

Absolutely. Yes, the money that's spent, which will expire, would not create a new unit, so there would have to be new money. And yes, on looking at CMHC, in our case we would suggest that.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Capponi, you stated that you lived in a housing co-op for 16 years. Do similar co-ops still exist? Is the type of housing cooperative that you lived in for 16 years still around?

[Diana Capponi]

A number of housing co-ops exist in the city of Toronto. I can only speak for Toronto. However, no new co-operative housing has been built for many years. The beauty of co-operative housing is the mixed incomes. Nobody's ghettoized by living there. It's an opportunity for some of the most marginalized people to really benefit from the inclusivity of a housing co-operative. I know I certainly benefited. I'd say there has not been any new federal money for housing co-operatives for at least eight or nine years.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

You're right, not since 1993.

Ms. Cummings-Diaz, your testimony was very moving. You said that 90% of the food handed out by food banks had little nutritional value. How would you resolve that problem? Would providing healthier options be more costly? Would consulting with dieticians be one option? What could we do to rectify this situation?

[Patricia Cummings-Diaz]

I think the food bank is just another band-aid solution. When we start putting up food banks, we are throwing our whole ideology right out the window. Give people a guaranteed income, non-taxable, with full health benefits, and then we're not going to need food banks. On home ownership, expand Canada Mortgage and Housing, add the green element to it with solar energy.

Do all of that. There's a way of doing this. That guaranteed income will generate the economy, because now we have the money we need necessities for. I sleep on a mattress on the floor. Welcome to the new world order, Canada.

That's not us. We're bigger than that.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Madam.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Monsieur Ouellet.

We going to now turn it over to Mr. Martin.

Sir, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thanks for being here today. We're certainly getting an education this afternoon.

I really appreciated your comment, Patricia, that it is who we are. Somewhere along the line we seem to have forgotten who we are. I remember the late nineties and I remember the 21.6%. I was in the provincial legislature at the time. I was shocked. I remember Kimberly Rogers. How that could happen in this country is unbelievable.

How do we get back to who we are? You've suggested that we go back to the whole issue of human rights and the covenants we've signed onto internationally and that we try to live up to those. Some have suggested that we need a new piece of legislation—a poverty act. Would that help in any way?