I'm confused, because every year the chief actuary reports to the Employment Insurance Commission on the employment insurance break-even premium rate and maximum insurable earnings. We all think that having self-employed people involved is a good thing, but there's an impact on the EI fund, and we need to get a sense of what this cost might be. It seems to me that the chief actuary, whoever he or she may be at the time, would have a role in determining whether this is an actuarially sound bill, or at least if there is a cost that we can know in advance.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

I think it's important to understand that because this program is voluntary, we can only have estimates of what we expect the take-up to be, what we expect claimant rates to be, and what we expect the duration of claims to be. One of the things that will be going on is that we will be tracking this very closely, because we want to see what the actual numbers are going to turn out to be.

Our estimate is that this program is going to be essentially self-financing, but obviously if there is a higher participation rate that means more revenues. If there's a lower claim on benefits, whether it's in frequency, or indeed in duration, because quite often the self-employed feel that they can't stay away from work for a full 50 weeks for maternity or parental leave, then obviously that will have an impact on the net cost.

That being said, we have included a proposal to review the program at five years.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

So the chief actuary has not evaluated this program.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Not to my knowledge--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

If they haven't, that's fine. I just want to use my time because....

Are you saying, Minister, that this will be a self-sustaining, break-even piece of legislation?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

What we expect is that it will be essentially self-financing, but there is no guarantee of that. It could be in surplus or it could be slightly under. We don't expect it to be any significant extra cost.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I understand. I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just suggesting that for any bill that comes before Parliament--many of them are optional programs--there is still analysis that is done to determine....

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Yes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Can you release the surveys that you've done to indicate the interest in general take-up among the self-employed?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

In fact, the interest in these programs is available online through the Library and Archives website right now.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

So there have been surveys and focus groups and things like that?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

The 2009 “EI Tracking Survey” is the name of the report and it is available through the Library and Archives website.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

That was a survey that questioned self-employed people about whether they're interested in...?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Yes, about their interest. In fact, the results were that 86% indicated they wanted sickness benefits, 84% wanted compassionate care benefits, 65% wanted parental benefits, and 62% of the women were interested in maternity benefits.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

But was there any discussion of what the cost would be for them to do that? I'm interested in a lot of different things if I don't have to pay for them.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

You asked if they had indicated interest, and yes, those are the percentages that indicated interest in these special benefits.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Well, since I have this concern about the cost and you're telling me that this is going to be self-financing, but there hasn't been a significant outside actuarial look at it, if the minister and the department are overly optimistic and this program is found to be non-sustaining, can you commit today that the extra money will come out of the consolidated revenue fund and will not impact negatively on the other people who pay into the employment insurance fund, the employers and the employees, who don't have an option on whether they pay premiums or not?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

The fundamental principle behind the employment insurance program in Canada is one of risk pooling. There are many people who pay EI premiums, both employees and employers, and the individual never, ever collects any benefits, and so--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

I understand, but my concern is that there's a $2 billion fund that's being transferred over to the new EI financing board. That's $2 billion, which we know is not enough, because we are already in some kind of a deficit due to the circumstances. I'm not blaming you, but that's what has happened.

So this could be a further drain on that $2 billion and could impact rates down the road, which would mean that premiums could go up for everybody if this is not self-financing. Is that not the case?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

That's one possible scenario. Equally, it could be break-even. Or there is also the possibility that if the claims rates are lower than the premiums, it could actually contribute in a positive way to the EI fund.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Yes, but my concern is that there hasn't been an actuarial analysis. It seems to be lacking.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

Thank you, Mr. Savage.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco

I'm sorry. We'll have to come back to you another time.

Mr. Lessard, you have the floor.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

I also want to welcome the minister and her officials; discussions on this bill are starting to sound familiar to them I am sure.

First, I think that you will have understood that we are in favour of the principle underlying this bill because it is new to be able to open up employment insurance benefits to self-employed workers. This appears to be a good thing to us. How should we do it and what are the right measures? That is something else again, and I think that that is what today's discussion will focus on.

My first question will be about the choices you have made in terms of coverage. Why, Madam Minister, did you choose not to provide employment insurance benefit coverage to self-employed workers who are experiencing financial difficulties when they no longer have income from employment?