Human Resources Committee on Nov. 19th, 2009

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Yes. You have two minutes and seven seconds.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I would just comment on that again. Whether you want to expand on this or not, the fact is, at least anecdotally, that in regard to whether it should be mandatory or optional, people have said, almost to a person, “Well, it's a good program and I have the option at some point of choosing to jump in”. They say that it's not closing the door if they choose not to at this point and that it's their call in view of their business and the various configurations there.

So while I haven't done any kind of systematic survey, if you will, it seems to me that business people, self-employed people, at least tend to appreciate the fact that it's optional, knowing that they can get in at whatever time they so choose, I take it, and knowing that it's not mandatory. There's no coercive element, which I guess is probably in line with where we are as a party. Small-c or big-c, conservatives generally don't want to be foisting this upon people or coercing them, against their own better judgment in some cases, and where it may not suit their own particular needs and interests at that time.

That's what I'm hearing, anecdotally at least, and I assume it was that kind of backdrop or background as to why we went down this road instead.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

The other aspect, as you point out, is that it's a matter of choice. We expect that that lower- and middle-income self-employed people will be more likely to participate than higher-income people.

Those with higher incomes would receive a lesser benefit proportionately because of the maximum insurable earnings--in other words, the cap on how much they can collect. Those who have higher incomes also have more opportunity to set aside money for events like this.

We see a number of reasons. They may not want to participate, and that's fine, because it's their entrepreneurial spirit that is driving this. Some very small self-employed operations may not be able to afford it. They may say no to it. Or maybe it's a temporary thing for them. Maybe they're self-employed while they're looking for another job. That's fine.

But this provides flexibility. What we really don't want to do is hamstring the self-employed, because they are entrepreneurs and we want to encourage and foster that entrepreneurial spirit. That's what grows the country.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Mr. Lessard, you have five minutes.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Minister, we know that Quebec now has the responsibility for parental leave and that a transfer was done to cover the costs for that type of leave. We also know that the major part of what you want employment insurance to cover involves parental leave. I remind you that people who take parental leave usually use up the 35 weeks provided for in that regard, whereas only 15% of those who take sick leave use the full 15 weeks provided. For compassionate care leave, there are 6 weeks. So what this means is that the part that covers compassionate leave and sick leave is the least costly.

Can you explain how you manage to have employment insurance pay for all of the premiums for Quebec workers to obtain the two types of leave that are the least costly?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

In Ontario and British Columbia, self-employed workers will have to pay premiums identical to those paid by salaried workers. At this time, that is $1.73. In Quebec, the premiums are now $1.36. The rate is reduced because of the benefits offered by Quebec. So we are offering the same thing, that is to say premiums of $1.36, but...

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I would like you to explain something to me, please. This follows upon the questions I put to Mr. Vermaeten, earlier. Why not have determined the real costs of compassionate care leave and sick leave in order to break those costs down and have double premiums assumed, since the employer's premium is taken into consideration in this regard? Why not have done it in that way? We would have arrived at a far different result insofar as costs are concerned.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

First of all, let me say that Quebec men and women will for the first time have access to affordable insurance for sick leave benefits.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Yes, but answer my question. Why not do an assessment of the real costs of compassionate care leave and sick leave?

You explained the rationale for the bill, its soundness, but why not have proceeded in that way with regard to real costs? I am asking you because earlier I was not given those costs. M. Vermaeten said that he did not have those costs. Why not have carried out that exercise?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, if you reference Marleau and Montpetit--now O'Brien and Bosc--I think you will find, on standing committees, the point about asking repetitious questions. Mr. Lessard may not like the answer he received, but I think it clearly states in there the piece on asking repetitious questions. I think he may want to move on and ask a different question, because I believe they've answered his question.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

You have the right to reply, Mr. Lessard.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

If my colleague had followed the discussion correctly he would have seen that there was no repetitive question. This is a completely different question. I am asking why you did not assess the real costs of these two benefits. Why was this not done in order to set a fair premium that was related to the costs?

[Frank Vermaeten]

In fact, we've done very careful calculations. As I pointed out before, these calculations were confirmed by our chief actuary.

In the case of Quebec, I think the essence of your question is this: is the rate that's being proposed in Quebec, $1.36, fair for the sickness and compassion benefits that are being provided? I believe that's the essence of your question. So you're asking—

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

That is not what I want to know, Madam Chair. I want to know why people did not proceed in this way. It is simple. I do not want to know at what cost. Why were the two benefits not assessed in this way?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Mr. Lessard, forgive me, but your time has expired. What you could perhaps do at another time is ask for figures or information to be sent to the committee, to the clerk, if you wish. But your time has expired and if I understand, we...

A point of order, Mr. Martin?

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Yes. In keeping with the advice you just gave to Mr. Lessard, the minister raised the spectre of self-employed not asking for regular benefits. I know there are groups that have, in fact, so I'd like you to table with the committee, if you wouldn't mind, who in fact you consulted with in terms of that information. You don't have to answer that. We're out of time.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

If I might clarify, I was asked what I had heard. That wasn't always in written form. Some of it was anecdotal. Some of it was in conversations with people who I met in a wide variety of circumstances, not in a formal setting where there was documentation of that, so....

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Madam Minister, if I'm correct in this, at the very beginning of this meeting you did read off a partial list.

Is this the list you're referring to, Mr. Martin?

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I'm sorry?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

On the partial list the minister read off at the beginning of this meeting, is this the list you're referring to?

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

No.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

It's not. Okay.

I think I'm going to have to stop this meeting.

Mr. Savage.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I haven't received a copy. We didn't get a copy of the minister's comments. I wonder if we could get a copy of the minister's comments for our use in committee.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

We did ask for a copy.

Can we ask again for a copy of the comments you made at the very beginning of the meeting, Madam Minister?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I had expected them to be here before I was. I apologize that they weren't.