Evidence of meeting #57 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was leave.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
A voice
Yes.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Thank you.
I'm going to ask a question, but Mr. Lobb is doing such a great job that I'll probably give him the rest of my time.
One of the issues and, I guess, the complicated part of the employment insurance program is the fact that intermittently you can go back to work. You can then apply again for EI or you can actually go back to work and earn a little bit of money before it.... Well, I guess it does start to work against the employment cheque you receive from the federal government.
Is the same set-up going to work for self-employed individuals so that they in fact might be able to do a small bit of work without it having an impact on the benefit they'd be receiving while on leave?
5:15 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
What we've tried to do, where at all possible, is to mirror the system that's currently available. So yes indeed, for this issue, in terms of earning income while on claim, the same parameters have been set up. So in the case of maternity and parental, there is a certain threshold you can earn without it reducing your EI, and after that if you go beyond the threshold, your EI is reduced dollar for dollar. So yes, it mirrors it exactly.
In the case of sickness, under the current system if you earn income at the same time, that is reduced dollar for dollar and there is no initial exemption. The same system here is provided for self-employed.
Do you want to add anything to that, Louis?
5:15 p.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I just want to say that in fact maternity and sickness are treated the same way in that basically the earnings are taken into account dollar for dollar. I just wanted to add that clarification. For the other type of benefit, there's a threshold that people can earn.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON
Madam Chair, I'll turn the rest of my time over to Mr. Lobb.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Thank you very much.
I wanted to talk about some of the maximum benefits. On your page 3, about the timing of the benefits, could you explain just for the people at home? Under the compassionate care.... Oftentimes an elderly person may get sick and then get sick again, and I just wondered if you could explain to the committee how that will work if, say, a family member is sick a couple of times throughout the year.
5:15 p.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
For compassionate care, I think the rule is that you could get six weeks of benefits if the relative is at risk of death during the next 26-week time period. Basically, you could use the six weeks of benefits during that 26-week period. If the person does not die and you have not used up the six weeks, you can reapply with a new doctor's certificate.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
For the viewers at home, and hypothetically speaking, if I were to be self-employed and my spouse was self-employed, would we be able to split that time? Could we do six weeks each or would we do three weeks each and split the six weeks?
5:15 p.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I will need to confirm that for compassionate care.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Okay. Thank you very much.
I'm not sure on this, but I'll ask this question, too, on the maternity and paternity benefits. In today's environment, employed people can split their time for maternity and paternity benefits. If both are deemed self-employed, can self-employed people split their time as well?
5:15 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Yes. If they both opt into the program and they both pay premiums, they can split the time.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Obviously, the first part, with the maternity section, that would be one.... But yes, okay. Thanks very much.
Madam Chair, do I have time left?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
I wonder if I could build on Mr. Dykstra's question about getting the message out. If or when the bill receives royal assent, one of the things we want to make sure of is that as many young couples as possible--and self-employed people in general--are educated and notified and start paying into the program.
Could you touch on a few other points that you may have missed before?
5:20 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Operations Branch, Service Canada
I can mention the fact that with the Canada Revenue Agency we know who is self-employed. That will be quite good in order to send mailings to all self-employed workers to inform them about this new programming and how they can register to have access to those benefits.
As I said, in addition to working with the Canada Revenue Agency, we want to provide the information on the Web. We also want to work with associations like, for example, the Canadian Payroll Association. Self-employed workers often use accountants and the Canadian Payroll Association for their businesses and we will make them aware of the new programming as well.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Raymonde Folco
Do you need more time? You're okay?
Mr. Lessard, you have the floor.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
As I understand it, the rate is established based on all contributions, be they from the rest of Canada or from Quebec, and that $1.73 and $1.38 are rates calculated on the basis of principle and not of cost-effectiveness.
Are we wrong to say that the cost of parental and maternity leave is higher than the cost of compassionate leave and sickness leave combined? It is, is it not?
5:20 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Certainly with the maternity and parental, you're entitled to 50 weeks, while for sickness, it's 15 weeks, and for compassionate, six weeks, so yes, the costs per claim are generally higher for that.
5:20 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
Okay. Thank you very much. In this case, that was a precise answer.
Looking at the calculation of the real costs of sickness leave and maternity leave for the rest of Canada in relation to the transfer made to Quebec for parental leave, or 35¢, our calculations give the same rate for compassionate and maternity leave. That still leaves us with 35¢. For Quebec, the other 35¢ does not apply because it has already been transferred. If we add the normal employer's contribution, we get 0.40. So, 70¢ plus the 1.40 gives us about 90¢.
Do you not see that there is a significant gap between the real cost and the cost that requires a contribution, between 90¢ and $1.38?
5:20 p.m.
Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
I think the question you're asking is.... In the case of the current system and maternity and parental, we reduce Quebec's rate by equivalent to 90¢. Is that what you're saying? Or, we're compensating Quebec by a rate reduction of 90¢, so that, roughly, is an indication of how much it costs to provide maternity and parental benefits, that 90¢. I think what you're saying is “let's take that number and translate it for the rate for Quebec”.
I think you have to take into account that in the case of that rate reduction we're talking about a non-voluntary system. The rate reduction, the 35¢, which, if you do the math, works out to about 90¢, takes into account that this is a non-voluntary system where the risk and the clientele are very different.
I think there are two major differences when you look at the types of individuals making sickness and compassionate claims in the context of the voluntary system. First of all, you're going to have some self-selection. Those people who think they may benefit will be more inclined to join. That's true with any voluntary insurance system. The second thing is that in the case of the employees generally, in many cases when they go to make a claim when they are sick, they first turn to their employer, and their employer provides that type of benefit. So it's a claim more of last resort; that may be one way to articulate it.
So what you have is a very different cost structure when it's a mandatory system with a very different clientele, and so--
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC
The answer is clear. Thank you very much.
I am going to let my colleague Mrs. Beaudoin ask some more questions.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC
Mr. Beauséjour, I asked you earlier if, from your estimate of $70 million for this program, you could give me the breakdown for the three kinds of benefits. You were just about to answer.
5:25 p.m.
Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
It is about a third.
5:25 p.m.
Bloc
Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC
Can you give it to me in figures? You were going to earlier. You started to say 200, then you stopped. If you cannot provide this information now, can you do so in writing in 24 hours? Then, as parliamentarians, we would at least have the information we need in order for us to take a position on this initiative that, among other things, involves significant expenses in Quebec and the other provinces.