Evidence of meeting #13 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pay.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Barbara Byers  Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress
Sylvain Schetagne  Senior Economist, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress
Chantal Collin  Committee Researcher
John Farrell  Executive Director, Federally Regulated Employers - Transportation and Communications (FETCO)

April 26th, 2010 / 3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair (Ms. Candice Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, CPC)) Conservative Candice Bergen

Good afternoon, everyone. I would like to call to order meeting 13 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities. Pursuant to the order from Wednesday, March 3, we will be considering Bill C-308.

We want to welcome two witnesses this afternoon from the Canadian Labour Congress: Barbara Byers, executive vice-president, and Sylvain Schetagne, senior economist, social and economic policy department.

Welcome. We're glad to have you here. You'll have 10 minutes to present and then we'll have questions from the committee members.

3:30 p.m.

Barbara Byers Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Thanks.

I'll be making the initial presentation and then Sylvain and I will be sharing the questions.

First of all, I do want to thank the committee for being accommodating of our schedules. Sylvain has a son who is anxious that he be picked up by his father after school, so we did say to the committee that we could be here but that at least Sylvain has to be gone by 4:30. Thank you very much. I think it's really important that the committee showed this consideration.

On behalf of the Canadian Labour Congress and our over three million members across the country, we thank you for this opportunity to come and talk to you another time about unemployment insurance--or employment insurance, as some call it--because we do bring together people from all across the country, from coast to coast, in federations of labour, our affiliates, and our labour councils.

For a long time, the CLC has had three pillars in our UI campaign. We know that a lot needs to be done with employment insurance, but we've said that there are three things that need to be fixed. The first is access. The second is benefit level. The third is duration of benefits.

I'm actually not going to spend a lot of time on the question of access and level of benefits in terms of our presentation, because I want to spend more time on the duration issue. But let it be said that access is absolutely important: there's no point in having a great program that nobody can get into. We have contended for a long time that what we need to have is access of 360 hours. This bill provides for that.

We did not choose the number of 360 hours out of a hat; it's based on 30 hours a week for 12 weeks. In fact, that's actually higher than what the access rate was prior to going from “weeks accumulation” to “hours accumulation”. In fact, it was a lower threshold when you were in hours accumulation; I believe it was 15 hours over 12 weeks. So obviously we support the expansion to 360 hours for all claimants.

Similarly, in terms of level of benefits, the bill would modestly increase EI benefits to 60% of earnings calculated on the 12 best weeks over the previous year. We have to remember that the most recent 12 weeks aren't always the best 12 weeks, so that best 12 weeks is very important. We welcome this move to 60% on the basis of the best 12 weeks.

The average benefit today is very low. Nobody is having a good time on UI--if they ever did. The average is about $350 a week, which is barely enough to support even a single person above the poverty line and, quite clearly, if you are a woman who actually is able to access unemployment insurance, the average is even lower in all areas for women. By the way, again, the rates were much higher before: 70% and 66%. So we haven't even come back to where we used to be.

We want to spend most of our time this afternoon on the question of duration and exhaustees, because this is becoming a much bigger problem. It's estimated that a new claimant today will qualify, on average, for about 38 weeks or nine months of benefits. That's an average of 31 weeks before the recession, plus the extra five weeks added in the budget, plus the extra two weeks guaranteed, on average, by a rise of two percentage points in the national unemployment rate.

We know that jobs are still very hard to find. Between the start of the recession and September 2009, the average duration of a spell of unemployment has risen from 13.6 weeks to 17 weeks.

More than one in five unemployed workers in February 2010 had been out of work for more than six months, clearly placing those on EI at risk of running out of benefits in the very near future if in fact they hadn't already exhausted EI. So although there is a decrease in terms of access and an increase in terms of the level of benefits, the duration of benefits remains a concern that we think needs to be addressed.

The recession has been a stress test for the current EI system, the first test of fast-rising unemployment since the new hours-based system was introduced in the mid-1990s.

Since the crisis began in October 2008, there has been a modest rise in the proportion of all unemployed workers collecting regular EI benefits, driven by two key factors.

First, the initial stages of the downturn were marked by major layoffs of workers who had typically been in stable employment before becoming unemployed. Before the recession, proportionately more of the unemployed were new entrants and re-entrants to the workforce, who needed 910 hours of work. That really disqualified a lot of young workers, as well as parents, mostly women, who were returning to work after a leave, as well as recent immigrants.

Second, the EI system automatically responds to downturns, though with a lag. It doesn't deal with it right away, because the entrance requirements and the duration of benefits depend on the local unemployment rate. By mid-2009, the entrance requirement to qualify for EI had fallen compared to October 2008 in about 40 of the 58 EI regions, accounting for over 80% of workers.

Many workers, though, are still falling through the cracks. Again, it's primarily young workers and women. Since October 2008, the number of unemployed workers who were unemployed but not collecting regular EI benefits rose rapidly. The proportion of unemployed workers collecting benefits has jumped for men, but has barely increased for women. The BU rate between July 2008 and July 2009 went from 37% to 45% for men, but for women it went from 44.7% to 45.2%--barely even a twitch.

The proportion of unemployed workers collecting benefits remains low in many parts of our country. Part of the reason is that it's difficult to gain access when jobs suddenly disappear in what used to be a low unemployment area.

Entrance requirements in terms of hours worked continue to exclude many unemployed workers. We estimate in some of the studies that means about 160,000 unemployed workers in any given month and a much higher number over the course of a year. There was a study by HRSDC of a proposal to temporarily drop the entrance requirement to 360 hours. That would have brought about 184,000 more workers into the system over a year, at a cost of $1.14 billion.

As proposed in this bill, the CLC believes that the 360-hour threshold should also replace the 910-hour requirement imposed on new labour force entrants and re-entrants, because that really excludes recent immigrants and may account for why so many unemployed workers in Toronto and Vancouver are ineligible for benefits.

On top of unemployed workers who never qualify for benefits, many unemployed workers collect benefits for a while but exhaust a claim before finding a new job. Workers who entered the EI system in the early stages of the crisis, in 2008, were starting to run out of benefits in significant numbers by the fall of 2009. The number of exhaustees, we predict, will soar in the months ahead. You have figures there about what the percentages were in terms of people who exhausted their benefits before the recession and after.

It's estimated that a new EI claimant today will, on average, qualify for about 38 weeks or nine months of benefits. That was an average of 31 weeks before the recession--again, plus the extra five weeks added in the budget, plus the extra two, and so on. We think the total number of new regular EI claims in 2009 will hit about two million. If the exhaustion rate remains the same, we could eventually see 500,000-plus people and their families with exhausted claims in late 2009 and into 2010.

At this point in the recession, as I've said, jobs are still very hard to find. Between the start of the recession and September 2009, the average duration of a spell of unemployment had risen from 13.6 to 17 weeks, and more than one in five unemployed workers in September had been out of work for more than six months. I know that some of this was referred to earlier, but I think it bears repeating.

The CLC has called for improved access to 50 weeks of EI regular benefits. We want to make it clear that if the majority of MPs come to an agreement on this bill, we wouldn't want our position on the question of duration of benefits to stop the increase to more access and improved benefits, which are the two improvements I referred to earlier.

We still believe, though, that the benefits need to be paid longer to better protect Canadians and the Canadian economy from the consequences of an economic downturn like the one we are in now.

We urge you to support this important and progressive piece of legislation. Once it has passed, I think we need to come back to the duration issue and deal with it for all those people who are being excluded now.

I went very fast; my apologies to the interpreters. They have the English copy of the document. We will get you the French translation within the next couple of days.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much, Ms. Byers. We appreciate this.

We'll begin with our questions from committee members. Our first round is for seven minutes, which includes questions and answers.

We'll begin with Mr. Savage, please.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to both of you. I guarantee that I won't hold you up from picking up your son; that's priority number one. I wish I were home to pick my son up too.

I want to just chat a little bit about some of the initiatives in this bill, which has been brought forward by one of our more distinguished parliamentarians, who shall remain nameless throughout the committee today. As we often say about employment insurance, there are a lot of things that can be done to make the system stronger and better for more employees. I suppose you can make changes that would benefit employers as well; I think we have to bear in mind both sides. This bill refers to a number of them.

I want to reference something the Library of Parliament did for us—I think for us, or perhaps for me—back in March, in which they compared our employment insurance system to those of some other countries, particularly countries in Europe.

For example, on a waiting period, in Canada, as you know, we have a two-week waiting period. They call it a “waiting period”; it's really a “you're out of luck period” for people who are out of work. Denmark has no waiting period; Finland has seven days; France has eight days; Germany has no waiting period; and Sweden has five days. We make people wait a lot longer to get benefits than other countries do.

On benefit duration, outside of what has happened on stimulus in countries, in Canada, as you know, the benefit duration is between 14 and 45 weeks. In Denmark, it's up to four years; in Finland, it's 500 days; in France, benefits are paid for a minimum of six months; in Germany, it's from six months to a maximum of 18 months; and in Sweden, it's 300 days, but it can be extended for 150 days.

There is a whole range of areas. For example, if you look at the benefit level, we have 55% of average weekly earnings. And you're right: it used to be as high as 70% back in the seventies and probably the early eighties. Denmark has 90%; Germany has 67% if you have a child and 60% if you don't; and Sweden has 80% for the first 200 days and 70% for the period after that.

The message here is that our EI benefits... We often compare ourselves only to the United States, particularly to some states where the benefits aren't as strong; in other states they're stronger. There are a lot of ways in which you can make the case that we need to invest, particularly in times of stimulus, but even without, when you're talking about stimulus, you need to invest.

On the stimulus side, there is a lot of evidence indicating that EI is the best form of stimulus, that in fact you're giving money to people who (a) need it and (b) will spend it. The famous study that gets quoted a lot indicates that there is a benefit of $1.61 for every dollar that's spent, so I think there is a lot more that could have been done on EI.

I guess my first question is on whether your organization has any updated estimates of the cost of any of these components.

3:45 p.m.

Sylvain Schetagne Senior Economist, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

No. The last time we looked at costing some of our proposals was about a year ago and parts of the information are still missing. For instance, the issues of exhaustees and duration have implications on calculations of the cost of implementing an entitlement of 50 weeks.

So there is still part of the equation that is missing, and no, we haven't updated the estimates that we tried to put together with the information we had about a year ago.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Okay.

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

May I add something on some of the other points you raised?

We would welcome a better EI program for the unemployed. We've been saying for years that it needs to be modernized. There is the whole question of women in the workplace and less than regular employment and so on. We would welcome all of that. Quite frankly, there's $57 billion of workers' and employers' money that could have been put into a better program for people than one that is not there for them when they really need it.

But there's also a reality. You will recall a parliamentary committee that in 2003-04 came out with 28--I believe it was 28--very good recommendations. But we said as well that the primary issue is that you have to be able to get people into the system. We can have a really good UI system, but if you're excluded because of a high number of required hours, then you have something that just looks good on paper.

Here is one last point on the exhaustees. When I have appeared in front of this committee before, one of the things we've asked for is that HRSDC do something that is in fact done in the United States, apparently, which is to give a monthly report on the exhaustee rate and which you can't get here in the same way.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

That's correct.

On the issue of access, in the last statistics we had it was 40% in 2008. Now, it did go up a little during the recession, but it didn't go up substantially. To compare it to other countries again, for example... In Canada that's 40%. What the government continues to say is that 82% of those potentially eligible get it, but that's like cherry-picking a specific field so that it looks better.

Over half of Canadians are not getting EI if they're unemployed. That's one of the problems of the whole access issue: the lack of hours or where they live or whatever it is that causes them to not get it. In Germany, by contrast, 70% of the unemployed were covered by EI in the last statistical year they have, and 85% were in Sweden.

So the issue really is one of access and it disproportionately affects women and part-time workers. In the study we're doing on poverty, we've heard about this access issue on a repeated basis.

Would you agree that part-time workers and women are particularly badly affected?

3:45 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

Yes, absolutely. Let's just go back to before we were dealing with the recession. You'll recall what happened to people in Toronto during the SARS crisis, the people who worked in hotels as part-time workers--again, predominantly women--who couldn't get access to EI, even though they had paid in for years, because they didn't have enough hours. We need to do something about the hours for access.

By the way, we keep asking HRSDC the question of how it is that they say 80% to 82% of people who would be eligible for EI actually get it. We ask why 100% of people don't get it. If they qualify for it, 100% of the people who are unemployed should get it, not 80%, and certainly not 40%.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

And you know--

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

I'm sorry, Mr. Savage.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Am I finished?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Your time is up.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Lessard, please.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Thank you for being here this afternoon, Ms. Byers and Mr. Shetagne, to testify again about the need for employment insurance reform. Bill C-308 involves only a few aspects of that reform.

Ms. Byers, you gave a very good summary of the situation and put things in context. It was a good idea for you to remind us of the entire debate that took place in 2004, out of which 28 recommendations were made. At that time, some of us on the committee took part in that work. In addition to myself, there were Mr. Godin and the Liberal MP, Mr. D'Amours. Although the Liberals were in power at that time, some Liberal Party members supported that reform and were involved in writing the recommendations. There were also people from the Conservative Party, which was the official opposition at the time.

It is therefore largely a question of the need for employment insurance reform. The argument made is that the situation of unemployed people has improved since 2004. For one thing, there are fewer of them, it seems. For another, people who lose their jobs are treated better because of the measures in place.

I was glad to hear you speak specifically about the situation of women. I would like to know your opinion on that subject. Has the situation of unemployed men and women improved enough to think about giving up on reforming employment insurance?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

Absolutely not. The EI system is in desperate need of reform. It's in desperate need of modernization. It excludes thousands of workers because, as we've put in our presentation, they don't have the right number of hours. They may have worked for years, but the system isn't working for them when they're unemployed.

Certainly in terms of even special benefits, I remember dealing with this issue years ago in my previous life in Saskatchewan as the president of the Saskatchewan Federation of Labour. We had a woman who worked for Canada Safeway who had gone on maternity leave. Under the old weeks accumulation, she qualified. A couple of years later, she had her second baby, but was then under the hours accumulation and didn't qualify anymore because she didn't have the required number of hours. It absolutely discriminates against people who don't have full-time, full-year work.

3:50 p.m.

Senior Economist, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

Sylvain Schetagne

Not only does it not work for those who lose their jobs and don't have access to benefits, but it doesn't work for communities. If you take a look at the ratio of beneficiaries versus unemployed ratio, that 40% we were talking about, it went up to close to 54% or 55% during the middle of the recession. We can compare that to the figures we achieved at the beginning of the 1990s recession. At that time, the BU rate went up to 83%, meaning that a lot more unemployed Canadians were getting cheques and could spend that money in their communities, helping those people keep their jobs.

Today's reality is that the safety net we have in place leaves about one out of two unemployed workers not only without any money to support themselves and their families, but also without any money to help others in their communities keep their jobs. Not only are they in a worse position today as unemployed people, but the communities in which they live are also in worse positions than they were.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

So we understand that in your view reform is necessary. Another aspect of the debate that has to be considered and that is handed to us is the question of costs. We know that premiums were frozen for a while at $1.73. In addition, the government limited increases to 15¢ each time, up to $1.43.

Given that a number of temporary programs instituted last fall are ending in 2011 and 2012, and taking into account the scheduled increases starting in 2012, we think the government may again find itself with a $19 billion surplus that it can use for other purposes. Do you think that kitty could be used to pay for the costs of an overhaul?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

Yes. We've said all along that we need to have reform. There used to be a process through which we got together once a year with people from the Unemployment Insurance Commission and with the Chief Actuary to talk about what the rates should be--not that we had a lot of influence, because the actuary was directed and was told, “This is what you need to do”.

We said all along in that process that it was too short-sighted, that we were looking a year out, not five years out. If we had taken a look at it at that time, I think somebody with more sense would have said no, you don't drop the premiums, and you actually start to do something with those premiums so they actually benefit unemployed workers.

I think you started out, Monsieur Lessard, by saying that some people believe there are a lot of improved measures for the unemployed. I'd like to see some of the people in this room, and some of the people in Parliament, go through the process of what it is like to try to apply for unemployment benefits. It's not easy, they aren't great benefits, and it doesn't work for workers. It also doesn't last long enough if you do get in.

3:55 p.m.

Senior Economist, Social and Economic Policy Department, Canadian Labour Congress

Sylvain Schetagne

I would like to add that certainly, in the coming months, there will be a debate about how to raise premiums. There was already an announcement on that point in the last budget.

The present situation is such that we are starting from a precise point in time for assessing the situation in the fund. We are not considering the surpluses accumulated in the past. That raises a big question, because we need to take them into account. Otherwise, we are going to adopt point x as the standard for assessing it, without regard for the fact that billions of dollars were accumulated before that point. We are going to start from point x as our basis and then assess what future premiums will be and what the balance will be.

The equation has to take into consideration the entire economic cycle, to see what the situation in the fund is. It is very clear, and this was being said before the reforms, that the fund has experienced substantial surpluses and the scheme could be improved. The scheme is good for workers who lose their jobs and it is also good for communities because it provides an economic stimulus that supports them. That should also be considered in the debate when we discuss how the scheme will be funded after the major economic crisis we have just experienced.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Godin, please.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The bill refers to 360 hours. The former Bill C-280 talked about maternity leave and parental leave, but this one doesn't.

What is the CLC's recommendation on that point?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Labour Congress

Barbara Byers

We believe that the 360 hours should apply for all benefits. Is that your question?

We believe that the 360 applies for all benefits, and it shouldn't matter where you live or what you do. It should be 360 hours—real simple. It makes it easy.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Previously, if I recall correctly, you needed 15 hours per week for 10 weeks, or 150 hours. Then the threshold was raised to 910 hours. The argument given by the former Liberal government and the present Conservative government was that young people should have to work a lot of hours to avoid them becoming employment insurance claimants. We shouldn't encourage them not to work. That was the argument, if you recall.

And where do pregnant women fit in all that? Should a woman decide not to get pregnant one night because the government might think she is abusing the system? Recently a young girl called my office. She was three months pregnant. She worked at Jiffy Products in Shippagan, and they had laid a shift off. She had worked 423 hours. She called me in tears and asked me what she was going to do and who was going to hire her now that she was three months pregnant. How can you go to an employer and ask them to hire you for a few months when you are shortly to be on maternity leave before long?