Human Resources Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's a policy decision on the part of the department, correct?

[Don Head]

That's right. The act allows us actually up to 30% gross of all those five prescribed incomes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

I don't know if you break out clothing and room and board separately from the overall costs, but how much does it cost right now to incarcerate somebody in a minimum, medium, or maximum security prison in Canada?

[Don Head]

I can give you the overall costs. We're currently in the process of refining what the incremental costs are for offenders, but we always report out the overall costs first.

For example, last fiscal year the average cost to maintain somebody in an institution was $109,000 a year. It was something like $147,000 in a maximum, $93,000 to $94,000 in a medium and minimum, and $203,000 in a women's facility.

So that's how we've been reporting it out over the last years.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Of those figures, can you break out what percentage of it is food, accommodations, and clothing?

[Don Head]

That's the process we're doing now. We're updating those numbers. Within the next few weeks, we'll be able to give the updated incremental costs for that.

We know, for example, that inmate food per year costs us $1,300 per offender, which is $5 per day. In terms of the inmate pay, we know the calculations there based on the various pay rates. We're just in the process of working out some of the other elements, such as the work clothing piece, so that we can have the incremental costs.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In terms of the accommodation part, which I would assume is the most expensive, does it take into account security within that, or is it just the bricks and mortar and operational costs—heating, water, and so on?

[Don Head]

Yes. The number I quoted, the $109,000 average institutional cost, includes security costs.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In terms of the legislation, though, the 30% for food, clothing, and accommodations, is security factored into those costs?

[Don Head]

As it stands right now, based on the approach we're taking with $25 per week, the answer is no. It's a very basic cost. As a matter of fact, it doesn't come close to covering the majority cost.

So the short answer is no.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

If we changed the policy and/or regulations under this, can you give us even a ballpark figure on the maximum you could take from these five sources, as opposed to the $25 as the maximum now?

[Don Head]

It really depends on how much people are earning in any one of those prescribed areas. For example, if somebody was drawing a private pension of $60,000 a year, and that money was coming into the institution and we knew about it, then we could, under the current legislation, withhold $18,000 a year.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Well, you have an inmate--as of last week--who in fact is earning that amount of pension. Will you move to take 30% of that pension?

[Don Head]

As it stands right now, one, we don't know for a fact that's the case, and two, if the moneys do not come into the institution, I have no means of taking any money.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So the real problem here--

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Sorry, Mr. Comartin, your time is actually up. We may have time to do one more quick round, but I'll stop you at this point and check to see if there any more questions from the government side.

Mr. Lessard, I think you did have one more quick question, so we'll give you three minutes.

Madam Minna, do you mind if we let Mr. Lessard have his turn first? Then Mr. Comartin can go after that, if he wants to go again.

Mr. Lessard.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Head and Mr. McCowan, according to Bill C-31, a person who is being fed and sheltered in a penitentiary must make a contribution, especially if they are receiving some income from the state, but how do we deal with cases of white-collar crime? Some of them are liable to receive sentences of more than two years of incarceration. As far as I am concerned, I do not know many such cases, but I know at least one who is over 65 and whose annual income is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. In one of these cases, there are millions of dollars involved. These people are not eligible to receive old age pension benefits nor can they receive the Guaranteed Income Supplement. Thus they will be fed and sheltered and laundered and it will all be for free.

How shall we proceed? If we can get our hands on the income of some of these people, we will do so, but are we going to let those white-collar criminals get free services? I am thinking out loud.

[Don Head]

Again, Madam Chair and committee members, the way the current legislation is prescribed, it has to meet one of those five definitions in the regulations. If it doesn't meet that I can't touch the money, and if it's money that is deposited out into the community and then just comes in as personal deposits by somebody else or as a gift from somebody else, I can't touch the money because the current act and regulations do not allow me to touch it.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I understand what you are saying and I am taking advantage of your presence here to try to reflect on this issue.

Let us take, for instance, the case of Conrad Black, which is already very well known, and this will keep me from mentioning some other names. I do not know whether Mr. Black is incarcerated in Canada or in Great Britain. I think that he is in Great Britain at this time. He could have asked to be transferred to Canada. He is not receiving any old age pension nor any Guaranteed Income Supplement because his income amounts to several million dollars a year. I am raising this question for the benefit of our Conservative colleagues. We must see whether this concern with getting the inmates to pay their way is not going to lead to unfair treatment of big earners and small earners.

I also want to come back to the first question I put and that Mr. Comartin also put. The fact that you can directly intervene pursuant to section 78 of the Corrections and Conditional Release Act would give you all that leeway without having to amend the legislation. Now, at this stage, this is more of an observation, given the fact that you have already ducked my question twice. In any case, I suggest that you should look for a simpler formula. You already have this leeway, but it is limited to 25% or to 30%, as the case may be, whereas it would be possible to have it for the entirety of the cases.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you.

Madam Minna, you had a request through me.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Yes, Madam Chair. I understand that Mr. Head said that information would take a couple of months with respect to the dependants, both the spouses and dependent children. But just for this committee to know what is happening, even if the bill has already passed, I would appreciate if Mr. Head would put the information together for us. If it does take a couple of months, I think it's still worth while for us to know what we are dealing with. I would appreciate it if he could do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

I had a question in regard to the information they gather, and I think it's pertinent to your request.

When you are gathering information automatically, if an inmate has a spouse, you're doing that to find out if there might be someone coming to visit them as well as if there is a support at home. But are you aware or do you gather information on whether that spouse is working, what their income level is, whether they are actually a dependant or providing for themselves? I'm just wondering if that's something you get. I'm thinking in the context of what we're looking for. If someone has a spouse who is working and earning a living where they can support themselves, they are actually not a dependant.

Do you look at the T4 slips of spouses?

[Don Head]

We have no authority to do that.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

If I may, I understand Mr. Head's department wouldn't be collecting that information except for what you mentioned, which is actually important, prior to this bill. I understand that to some degree, although you said, Mr. Head, that you do collect it on a one-to-one basis. The information is there somewhere.

Given the new legislation and given all of this, I would like to know, as a member of this committee, how many of those inmates do have wives that are dependent, or spouses for that matter, and dependent children, so it gives us a bit of a picture as to where we might be causing hardship, even if the bill is passed. At least the government can then take a look and maybe take some remedy.

[Don Head]

Again, Madam Chair and committee members, it goes back to my earlier comment; it's going to depend on what you define as a dependant, because there are going to be certain pieces of information I'm not going to be able to gather for you. I can tell who is a dependent child simply by age--