Human Resources Committee on Oct. 28th, 2010

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

On a point of order, Chair, that's not a correct statement that Mr. Watson just made.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

That's debate, Madam Chair.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It's a lie.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Excuse me. I think we want to find out about the bill, so I would just encourage us to stay on the topic.

[Michael Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

We should encourage honesty at the committee, because what he said is factually untrue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Okay. Thank you very much for that, Mr. Savage.

Mr. Watson, could you try to stay on topic?

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. That was debate, I think, Madam Chair. I hope that doesn't detract from my timing.

More to the point here, do law-abiding citizens have the opportunity to bank their OAS while the taxpayers pay for food, clothing, shelter, heat, cooling, dental, health care, the way they do for those who are incarcerated?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

No, indeed, they do not. In fact, the amount of OAS they collect is determined by their other forms of income, because if they are totally self-supporting, then they are entitled to either a lot less or some less OAS support. It's designed to provide a certain standard. Beyond that, if a person is receiving it through other sources, no, they're not entitled to it, and certainly not to bank it for the future.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Now, in the suspension of OAS benefits, until such time as the sentence is served, can you hive off high-profile inmates like Clifford Olson, Robert Pickton, Paul Bernardo, or Russell Williams from the lower-profile inmates and allow the lower-profile ones to bank it? Can you hive them off in the suspension of benefits?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

No, we have to make sure that the law is applied equally to all, so we have to make sure that the law does apply....

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

So, in effect, if you're arguing in favour of the opportunity for some inmates to bank their OAS, you're actually arguing in favour of all inmates, including the Picktons and the Bernardos and others, to be able to bank their OAS. Is that correct?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It is, and there comes a question that if you start to say some but not all, how do you choose? If someone murdered once or was convicted of one murder, are they less of a heinous person than someone who was convicted of two? At what point do you draw the line? We believe the courts and the laws of this land set certain standards for acceptable behaviour and certain standards for punishment when people do not practise the acceptable behaviour.

If someone, whatever the crime, has been determined to be serious enough through our national system and our provincial system, which reflect our citizens' standards, to have broken the law to a degree that they get certain punishment severe enough to be incarcerated, they are not entitled to OAS, we believe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you very much. I think we'll have time for one more question before the minister has to leave.

We'll go to Madame Beaudin, please.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, thank you very much for being here today.

Thank you as well, gentlemen.

First of all, I want to say that I was delighted to hear in your opening statement that the Vancouver Chief of Police supports this bill, and I'm also delighted to know that the views of our chiefs of police are sometimes deemed important by this government when it comes to support for certain bills.

I'd like to come back to a question I put to you, Mr. Paquette, and address it to the minister this time.

You say that you personally wrote to the governments of all the provinces and Quebec. I would therefore like to know if there is the beginning of an agreement, or how this was received in Quebec, particularly by the Ministry of Public Safety.

Furthermore, I know that inmates in Quebec who are on welfare stop receiving payments beginning with their third month of incarceration, the idea being to ensure they have a little money when they are released and that there is more effective rehabilitation.

Have you had any initial contacts with Quebec?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I wrote a letter to the Quebec minister. He answered me. He did not say yes, nor did he say no. I'm optimistic, because the Province of Quebec has already changed its own system along similar lines. So, I'm hopeful.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Perfect.

I'd like to respond to the comment made earlier by my colleague opposite. What is of concern to us is obviously rehabilitating inmates once they have paid their debt to society, are released from prison and become citizens like everyone else. We are obviously concerned about that.

When you drafted this bill, had you carried out any studies to determine what its impact would be on rehabilitation?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

This bill has a specific purpose, which is to change the system so that it is fair to the taxpayers of Canada. We want to ensure that people who committed crimes and were convicted of those crimes are not receiving taxpayers' money for the necessities of life when they don't actually have to pay for anything. That isn't fair to others.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Yes, that's true. However, at some point, these individuals once again become full-fledged citizens like everyone else. Do you have any interest in the measure Quebec has implemented, which involves suspending welfare beginning with the third month of incarceration, to ensure that they have a little money when they're released? I suppose you worked in cooperation with the people the committee heard from last week—namely, officials from the federal penitentiaries and the Correctional Service of Canada. I imagine you also worked closely with experts. Did you consider this? Never?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There are several different forms of assistance available for people being released from prison at the federal and provincial levels and also through other organizations. However, it is very important to point out that people are eligible for benefits as soon as they are released from prison.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

What type of assistance is available to an inmate who is released from prison after serving a 20-year sentence and who finds himself on the outside and becomes a citizen like anyone else?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

A whole series of programs is in place. You mentioned provincial programs. But there are also other programs available through various organizations whose aim is to support these people.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Could you give me some examples?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Well, some examples would be the Elisabeth Fry Society and the John Howard Society.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

So, those organizations provide financial resources to ensure… Earlier we were talking about mechanisms. I understood that you are not interested in establishing any particular mechanism or in facilitating the process, so that these people can quickly receive their Old Security benefits. I understood that they have to go to Service Canada, and write a letter to the minister.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

No. Of course we want to facilitate the process. These people can immediately go to Service Canada to apply for benefits. We want to expedite the benefit payment process. I already said that.