Evidence of meeting #31 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was child.
A recording is available from Parliament.
November 4th, 2010 / 9:20 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
So if anybody has any other questions, you would be all right if they do continue to direct them at you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
All right. Great.
We will at this time hear from the other witnesses who are here.
We want to welcome you and thank you so much for being here.
We have Michel Laroche, president of the Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared; Arlène Gaudreault, president of the Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes; and Mr. Martin Provencher is here as an individual.
Thank you all for being here.
I'm going to ask you to keep your opening remarks to seven minutes. If you keep an eye on me, I'll give you the one-minute warning. After your presentation we'll begin another round of questions.
Who would like to begin?
Mr. Laroche.
Michel Laroche President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Michel Laroche and I am President of the Association des Familles de Personnes Assassinées ou Disparues which represents some 575 families in Quebec and more than 10,000 individuals. We are a small group of volunteers on an 11-person board of directors who are working to improve the living conditions of families hard-hit by this kind of tragedy.
The Association has two types of members: families in which one or more members has been killed; and families in which a member has gone missing in seemingly criminal circumstances.
We support the proposed amendments to the Canada Labour Code to grant between 52 and 104 weeks of unpaid leave to employees who must be absent from work following the disappearance of a minor child or the death of their spouse, common-law partner or child.
We also support the proposed amendments to the Employment Insurance Act, to enable those persons to receive benefits for up to 52 weeks, instead of the 15 weeks currently provided for.
We are aware that victims and victims' families are increasingly part of the political and legislative landscape, and we are pleased that is the case. A number of bills and Criminal Code amendments provide for the needs and expectations of the families of victims or murdered persons. But more can be done.
Bill C-343 is a real opportunity to show just how much more can be done, because victims' families sometimes need real support, particularly financial support, following an incident of this kind. Shouldn't we as a society do everything we can to help these people? The victims' rights movement has grown and people have finally understood that victims' families need to be taken care of.
Our association was created to provide support and understanding to stricken families, and I believe it is doing a good job in that respect. However, family members also need financial resources. That is a fact, and our association cannot meet those needs. Yes, the Quebec Crime Victims Compensation Act does provide compensation to offset funeral expenses. Yes, it does offer psychological rehabilitation services and other forms of compensation, but that is not enough. It does not pay for groceries, rent or ongoing household expenses following a murder or disappearance.
Allow me to describe what these people have to go through, bearing in mind the tragic events that some of our members have experienced. I will not mention their names.
The first case involves a woman. Several years ago, two of her children were murdered by her former spouse, who then committed suicide. She found herself unemployed as her former spouse was also her employer. She was now alone in the world, because her parents were no longer alive, and was so distraught following this terrible tragedy that welfare authorities had to care for her temporarily. Several months later, she began putting her life back together. She returned to university, wrote a book telling her story, entitled The Survivor, and today gives lectures and provides support to others who have suffered through appalling ordeals.
Let's not forget that the physical and mental health of family members is severely affected following such an incident. Despite their pain and suffering, many have to go back to work in order to support themselves. It is terrible to think that they are abandoned to their fate, and have to return to the labour market as though nothing had happened. In many cases, they try but are unable to continue working when they become deeply depressed.
Another case I have in mind involves a mother whose child was taken from her by her partner, who then committed suicide after the murder. Fifteen weeks after this incident, she was admitted to hospital. She only began to feel better a year later, and she told me that the first year after the incident had occurred was the hardest, because of the child's birthday, Christmas and many other events of daily life that reminded her of the loss of her child.
These stories were all told to me by people who recently confided in me, and that is why I am telling them today.
Another woman had four children. Her husband murdered her. The woman's mother took charge of her children. After suffering a stroke, she returned to work. But at one point, she had to stop for health reasons. She went on welfare and only had very little income with which to support the children.
However, some do manage to recover sooner. Each case is different.
Another case involved a woman who is an emergency physician. Her two children, aged three and five, were murdered by her husband. She never saw it coming. We supported her throughout her ordeal. She went back to work, even though the cries of children arriving at emergency reminded her of the tragedy. Today she sits on the board of directors of our association and, through her courage and determination, is able to help other victims. She remains extremely fragile, however, even though she comes across as a strong woman.
Now what can be said about cases where children go missing? Unfortunately Quebec has been shaken by a number of such cases in recent years—in particular, Cédrika Provencher, Julie Surprenant, Jolène Riendeau, David Fortin, Diane Grégoire and Marilyn Bergeron, to name only a few.
I have appended to my notes three personal stories, two of which involve missing children: that of Caroline Lachance, mother of David Fortin, who has been missing for 21 months, and Andrée Béchard, mother of Marilyn Bergeron, who has been missing for 33 months. Their stories are tragic and terribly moving. I invite you to read them.
Family members affected by a missing child can only go back to their everyday activities with great difficulty. They have access to some support, but not financial assistance. Additional financial concerns are the last thing they need. Need I say more? The measures proposed in Bill C-343 are long overdue and accurately reflect the needs of family members of individuals who have been murdered or gone missing.
In closing, would it not be appropriate to avoid restricting measures dealing with missing people to missing minor children? Clause 2 of the bill, which amends section 206.5 of the Canada Labour Code, and clause 3 of the bill, which amends the Employment Insurance Act, should refer to a missing child, and not only a missing minor child.
Thank you for giving me this opportunity to address you.
Conservative
Arlène Gaudreault President, Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes
Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Arlène Gaudreault and I am President of the Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes. I am a founding member of the Association where I have been a volunteer since 1982.
The Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes is a coalition of member organizations that work with women, children and seniors. Year over year, our association has an average of 200 member organizations. Our organization has been a trailblazer in Canada. We introduced the victim impact statement before a code of law. We were the first organization to support victims of crime in Quebec—I coordinated that—and we also set up the first service to support victims and witnesses at the Montreal Court House.
Mr. Laroche described the problems facing families affected by a criminal event or suicide. I think it's fair to say the lives of these people have been shattered, turned completely upside down, and that they find themselves having to cope with the serious after-effects. We now know that one quarter of those who experience a violent crime will develop post-traumatic stress syndrome, that 15% to 20% of victims of violent crimes suffer chronic long-term after-effects, and that in the case of homicide, the mourning process for affected people lasts far longer. It is estimated that people generally need two years to recover and often go through a complex mourning process that can last for years.
Obviously, in fulfilling our mission over the 30 years since our organization was first established, we have often met people who lost their jobs because their employer laid them off from employment that wasn't protected. We have often met victims who were pressured by their employer to return to work quickly. We have seen parents deprived of wages having to care for children for many months—children who were seriously injured. And I can tell you that we quite regularly provide support to victims fighting to secure compensation and the right to rehabilitation. These are some of the things we encounter on a daily basis.
The issue of the return to work for victims of crime and families has been studied very little. And it is still being overlooked today. People are only starting to take an interest in the families of homicide victims and victims in general.
The proposed amendments to the Canada Labour Code, as Ms. Bonsant was explaining earlier, were largely inspired by Bill 58, which came into force in Quebec in 2006. It's important to point out that all the political parties, without exception, supported this bill. If you read the minutes of proceedings in the National Assembly where this was debated, you will see that there was very little discussion. There truly was a consensus and we hope that will also be the case for all the parties that make up the Canadian government.
Our association believes that the obligation to grant leave to employees when a member of their family has been the victim of a violent criminal offence or has committed suicide should be enshrined in the Canada Labour Code. That way, leave requests and the conditions for their return to work will no longer depend—and I think it's important to emphasize this point—on an employer's arbitrary decision, his good will or his capacity for empathy.
We're also in favour of amendments to the Employment Insurance Act, as this will mean better financial support for people who are vulnerable—I think everyone here can understand that—at times when they have to look after their family. It would provide them with financial assistance so that they can put their life back together according to what they believe to be most appropriate and this would also… It is a well-known fact that after a violent crime, there are all kinds of legal proceedings associated with applying for compensation through various legal and other authorities. That involves all kinds of unexpected expenses.
Indeed, the costs are very high for victims of crime. For example, Statistics Canada tells us that in 2003, the costs amounted to some $70 billion, 67% of which was born by the victims. Of that amount, costs associated with violent crimes amounted to $18 billion.
We see this support as an essential component of the programs and initiatives implemented to help victims of crime in Canada.
I would like to emphasize one point made by Mr. Laroche with respect to compensation programs. In Quebec, just as in this Committee, some people have been saying that compensation programs support the families, and that certain kinds of support are already provided under compensation programs. However, that is not correct. In cases of homicide or where the people asking for compensation are not the direct victims, compensation programs do not cover loss of income.
The Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes supports this bill because it recognizes that victims need support, because it reflects our collective solidarity and because it sends the message that we are not indifferent. We also support this bill because in Canada, we have a statement of principles that dates back to 2003. The first principle is that victims must be treated with respect, fairness and compassion. That highlights rights that are enshrined in the Canada Labour Code and granted under the Employment Insurance program; however, victims' rights included in legislation often are not enforceable.
There are two or three points we would like to make. The concept of physical injury is not defined and appears to be restrictive. Does it include strictly physical injury? Is psychological injury covered? An example that comes to mind is children who have been sexually assaulted; they may not have any physical injuries, but they have suffered serious harm. That concept needs to be clarified.
I would also like to point out that, as regards compensation, the concept of injury or bodily harm includes physical injuries as well as mental and nervous shock. Our suggestion is that related legislation, as well as court decisions in that area be reviewed. That is our first recommendation.
There are also a great many grey areas when it comes to missing persons and abductions.
May I continue?
Liberal
Raymonde Folco Liberal Laval—Les Îles, QC
Could we ask Ms. Gaudreault to provide a written brief? Unless it's already in the material we have here.
Your comments are very interesting. If you're not able to make the rest of your points verbally, perhaps you could do so in writing.
President, Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes
I could do so during the question period.
There is also the whole matter of the costs. I will certainly want to comment on the costing issue.
I also have comments with respect to the disparities between the provinces and the role of other authorities, such as the Ombudsman, for example, and the Department of Justice, that can play a role in this area.
Perhaps I can address those points during the question period. I did in fact take the time to prepare quite a lengthy brief. This is complex legislation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
Yes, that would probably be the best solution. When we have the questions and answers, you will have time to expand. Good.
President, Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes
I will provide that information during the question period, in that case.
Conservative
Martin Provencher As an Individual
Good morning. I was asked to testify this morning. I am not here to elicit an emotional response from anyone by relating what I've been through. I will be giving you details that I've never discussed before, despite the fact that our case received a great deal of media coverage.
My daughter's disappearance had multiple impacts. When you lose a child, you set aside your career and everything else, just as you all would have done. It is likely that everyone sitting at this table would not know when they were going to return to work. That is a very important point, because the bill proposed by Ms. Bonsant and her team addresses that specific issue. You could say that despite my bad luck, I was luckier than others. I had group insurance and an employer who appreciated my work and therefore gave me the flexibility to return when I was ready.
When you discover that a loved one is missing and find yourself in the midst of this kind of ordeal, nothing else exists. You'd be prepared to give up your house, your salary, indeed, anything—except your relationship with your child. Unfortunately, that is the way you feel when something like this happens and I think it's healthy that way. The sad reality, however, is that you need to earn a living; everyone has to. A time comes when work becomes important. It's important to go back. You already are fighting so many battles and juggling so many different things that it is important to be able to go back. I was Claims Manager for an insurance company and an Insurance Adjuster. I put my career on the line because I became a public figure, and I have to deal with cases that are not always very pleasant.
Perhaps we can provide some help. I'm sure most people would not be able to go back to the same career after such an event. I had the advantage of being able to go back to work when I was ready. My employer was a group insurance company and I got the support I needed. I stopped working for two years to look after my daughter and had complete flexibility to return to work when I could. Earlier we were talking about self-employed workers. They're important as well. My spouse, who is not the mother of my children, was a hairdresser. Unfortunately, when you have clients, you have no choice but to go back to work if you don't want to lose what you've built up over the years. It is thanks to our loyal client base that we are able to earn a living.
When an incident like this occurs, you can set it aside for a while, but at the same time you need it. It's what helps you to keep going at some point. There is no doubt that when she had to go back to work, everyone was not necessarily getting the best haircut. She had to talk at length about what had happened. Every time she would relive the events all over again. It happened again, as recently as yesterday, when we checked into the hotel. People recognized me and were crying as they spoke to me. It goes on for a long time and you still have to live during those years. My daughter has not yet been found. This is going to be with me for the next 10 or 15 years if she still hasn't been found yet, and it will be part of our everyday lives until she is found.
I speak to you today as someone who has experienced this kind of tragedy. Earlier, mention was made of someone who might fall or hurt himself on a staircase as he was committing a crime. But the parents committed no crime. They might want to abandon everything to help their child, because he or she is their child. So, I encourage you to support this bill, because it is what helped me in part to move forward. It's as simple as that.
Mr. Laroche, you can probably confirm that everyone did not benefit from the kind of help that I received. There must be stories of the exact opposite situation.
Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Candice Bergen
Thank you very much, Mr. Provencher.
We will begin our first round of questions. This will be a seven-minute round, and the seven minutes will include both the questions and the answers.
We'll begin with Mr. Silva, please.
Liberal
Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I have only two questions. I will be brief because I know that Ms. Bonsant would like a little time to clarify certain points. My first question is actually addressed to her.
You chose to base your bill on existing legislation in Quebec. I'd like to know what the rationale for that choice was. I'd also like to give Ms. Gaudreault some time to respond.
In actual fact, the bill you are proposing is the same as the legislation in Quebec. I'd like to know whether there have been problems in Quebec and whether the legislation is working well. You stated that it had the support of all the members of the National Assembly. I'm not sure whether that came out of our proposals, our committees or our reports. What is the situation now, three years later?
Ms. Bonsant, could you answer first? Then I'd like to hear from Ms. Gaudreault.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
We chose Bill 58 because it was the only available model, since Quebec was a trailblazer in this area. That's why we used this model. As I explained earlier, I am very open to ideas that could improve it, if the Committee feels that is necessary.
I would like to allow Ms. Gaudreault to say what she didn't have time to say earlier
President, Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes
Your question about what has happened in Quebec is an excellent one, in my opinion. The fact is that, at the time, people were saying there could be 5,000 applications, or 1,500 applications at best.
When I was preparing for my appearance before the Committee, I tried to obtain some information. I called the Office of the Minister of Revenue. There are no statistics available at this time with respect to the number of victims of crime who have availed themselves of the provisions under Bill 58. However, the table in Appendix 6 of the Quebec Labour Standards Board report shows that, of 3,818 complaints made under the Labour Standards Act, only 16 were made by victims of crime. That gives you an order of magnitude, but in actual fact there are no statistics available. I was told that it would be impossible to secure that information, because when complaints enter the system, there is no distinction made between people requesting sick leave, as opposed to family leave. However, based on what has been observed on the ground, very few victims have availed themselves of these provisions.
With respect to compassionate leave, some statistics are available on the website. In that regard, it is clear that there are currently a large number of Canadians who are unaware that such a thing as compassionate leave even exists; 40% have never heard of it, and 10% know only very little about it. And yet this is something that has been available for a very long time.
With your permission, I would also like to add that a great many family members of homicide victims do not take advantage of available services. Either they are not aware of them, or they do not necessarily feel the need to access them at the time. As a result, it is very difficult to ascertain the number of people who would like to take advantage of these measures. We are seeing that a lot of people want to get back to their normal life as soon as possible. That is important. Returning to the labour market is also important. It's equally true that some people need more time and are more vulnerable, for all kinds of reasons. However, none of this has been documented in victimology research.
We are in a new area of law. You are in the process of developing new law. What you are doing through the bill you are currently examining is extremely innovative in Canada, compared to other countries.
In closing, I would just like to say that Canada is a leader in developing programs to support victims. We are moving forward with this kind of legislation. It is true that we don't have access to all the data. But do we necessarily have all the data when a decision is made to build prisons and billions of dollars have to invested? Do we know how much it will cost for programs in future, when federal inmates ask to access such programs?
Perhaps we should be showing some flexibility towards the victims of crime, who have long been ignored.
Liberal
Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON
Do I have any time left? Two minutes?
Mr. Laroche, do you have anything to add?
President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
I don't necessarily want to comment on that. However, I would like to say something which I freely admit is rather delicate.
As President of the Association des Familles de Personnes Assassinées ou Disparues du Québec, I often hear comments from people who say that the current government is passing legislation dealing with the justice system and public safety that often meet their needs and expectations. On occasion, I have prepared press releases that underscore this government's positive initiatives.
What I want to say is that, if you feel a certain sympathy for victims of crime, why not continue to move down the same path? Why not support a bill like this which, it seems to me, would make it possible for the families of victims to really meet their needs? This time we're talking about financial needs. Yes, there is psychological support, as was mentioned earlier; yes, there is support for funeral costs. However, there are a great many other needs that are not covered when these tragedies occur and people are in mourning and unable to return to work.
Those are my comments for now.
Bloc
Josée Beaudin Bloc Saint-Lambert, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Bonsant, I would like to extend my sincere thanks to you for presenting this bill. I would also like to thank all of you for appearing today, and particularly Mr. Laroche.
I am going to ask all my questions at once, and then give you time to answer. That way you will be able to take full advantage of the allocated time.
Mr. Laroche, I would like to know whether you have any idea of the number of people among your membership who would like to re-enter the labour market.
Ms. Gaudreault, do you know whether similar legislation has been introduced in other countries? I would also like you to say more about the definition of “harm” that you addressed earlier. Perhaps you could say more about what is being done in Quebec and what should be added or better defined in this bill.
As I understand it, a significant number of people who are not wage earners experience this kind of tragic event and receive no financial assistance whatsoever. We are talking about at least helping wage earners through the Employment Insurance program.
Mr. Laroche, earlier you said that you would like to see these provisions extended to all children, rather than being limited to minor children. Does that only apply to children who have gone missing or do you want to generally broaden the application of this bill?
Those are my questions.
President, Association of Families of Persons Assassinated or Disappeared
Yes, I was referring mainly to children who are missing. I had in mind the case of a 19-year-old girl who went missing. The mother and family of that young girl have been distraught ever since she disappeared. I was discussing this earlier, when I mentioned the testimony appended to my own notes. One of the cases involves Marilyn Bergeron. The other young girl, who is 19, went missing 33 months ago. Both her parents had to stop working. They have had tremendous problems.
Why not provide benefits in cases involving missing children, even if they are not minors?
Bloc