Human Resources Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

We will resume. I'll just give everyone a moment to be able to hear my ruling.

I'm going to rule this motion out of order. I believe that according to O'Brien and Bosc, this does go beyond the mandate of our committee. Previously we had looked at the long-form census changes and how it relates to different groups that we deal with at this committee, but we've now gone beyond that scope.

I believe this motion goes beyond the scope of the mandate of our committee, so I am ruling this motion out of order. That ruling is not debatable, and that is my ruling.

Mr. Lessard.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Madam Chair, Mr. Komarnicki claimed that it was out of order and he had the opportunity to present all his arguments. I would have liked you to be able to hear the other side. I don't actually agree, but, out of respect for your decision, I don't think I can debate it now. However, if I may, I will lay out the reasons why we believe this is quite relevant. I feel our arguments should have been heard beforehand. Regardless of that, I am going to respect your decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

I did actually give you some indication way back in December that I had some trouble with the admissibility of this motion. I know we had talked about the long-form census, but when you look at making a directive in terms of what we're going to do with the long-form census and delaying it or not, I do think....

I'll read from page 1054 of O'Brien and Bosc, which says “motions moved in committee must not go beyond the committee’s mandate”. If you look on page 963, the long-form census doesn't fall at all within our mandate:

The Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities is responsible for, among other matters, proposing, promoting, monitoring and assessing initiatives aimed at the social integration and equality of disabled persons.

If you can show me somewhere in the rules where the long-form census does fall under our mandate in terms of giving directions on what to do with that procedure, my understanding is that it falls under industry. If you can prove differently...but at this point, this is my ruling. And my ruling would stand unless you challenge it.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Madam Chair, I am going to challenge your ruling, and here's why.

Both you and Mr. Komarnicki had the opportunity to make your arguments. I think it is only fair that I also make mine. If by chance you were right, that would mean that all the work the committee did on the long form would have been outside the scope of our mandate, which, in my opinion, is completely unacceptable.

In addition, the committee's mandate is to do this study and it is not doing so lightly. It is doing it precisely to find out whether there is a reason behind the long form. This study would not be done otherwise. Since, based on the testimonies we have heard, we can see that the long form has to be kept and since that's what the committee's recommendation is going to be, we have to go the extra step, meaning that we have to wait for the right time to retain it. Otherwise, even the decision of the House would be null and void. But that's not the intent of the House of Commons. The House did in fact indicate that the long form should be retained. Our responsibility and mandate were to do the study in order to identify the components that should be kept. As soon as we have the mandate to make the recommendation for retaining it...

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Mr. Lessard--

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

...the extra step that comes with it is the amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

--there is a point of order.

Go ahead.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

On a point of order, if he's challenging the ruling of the chair, it's non-debatable. He's making a debate over here. He's doing one or the other.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you, Mr. Watson.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

I challenge it, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

If you are contesting my decision, we have to go to a vote--

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Yes.

[Yves Lessard, Bloc, Chambly—Borduas, QC]

Je l’ai dit au début, madame la présidente.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

In fairness to Mr. Lessard, you've heard Mr. Komarnicki's argument for it being invalid or inadmissible, but you never, ever did heard anything from him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Well, what I heard was a point of order, and I then took the point of order into consideration. That's what I did. So we weren't arguing or having a discussion. I heard a point of order. We weren't having a debate about whether this was admissible. I took his point of order, I suspended, and I came back with a decision.

Thank you very much, Mr. Vellacott.

We will go to a vote. I remind the committee that I don't make these decisions lightly. I make them based on what I think the rules dictate. I would remind the committee that I'm not interested in presiding over a kangaroo court.

So I hope that we follow the rules. Unless someone can show me rules that are different, and that our mandate is a different mandate, I would ask that this committee support my decision.

[An hon. member]

I'd like a recorded vote, please.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Travis Ladouceur]

Members are voting on the following motion: that the chair's decision be sustained.

I will be proceeding with a recorded vote on this particular motion.

(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

All right. It's 1 o'clock, and....

Yes?

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Madam Chair, I would like to take a couple of seconds to explain why I voted no. There is a reason for this. Although generally--

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

I'm sorry, Madame Folco, actually, we're not going to discuss why people voted yes or no.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Well--

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

If you want to talk with me afterwards...but it's not part of our meeting.

So I'll be adjourning.

Thank you.