Human Resources Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2011

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

First, which occupations will be affected? Is there any correlation between the occupations which will have shortages in Ontario and the affected occupations of the immigrants who will come to Canada?

I also understand that each occupation will be scrutinized, task by task. Who will decide which task is eligible and which is not? Is it the educational institution, the unions or the professional associations? Who will determine the description of an occupation that will be acceptable once an immigrant is in training?

[Suzanne Gordon]

I just want to make sure that I understood your question.

You wanted to know what professions we're serving with the bridging programs and how we know if there's a shortage of skills, but I didn't understand or hear properly the last part of your question. I'm sorry.

[Anne-Marie Day, NDP, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I will try to explain the last part of my question. Take for example the profession mentioned by Ms. Giblin. She talked about nursing. In order to put an immigrant in touch with the profession, in internship or in workplace training, I guess the immigrant must carry out a lot of tasks before receiving a degree or being registered because you have to check if that person has the required skills to handle these tasks.

Who identifies these tasks? Is it the professional association, the union, the government? Who makes the decision?

[Suzanne Gordon]

Thank you.

In terms of professions, Ontario has funded bridge programs for training in more than 100 professions. We have a program in every regulated profession that has major immigrant landings, and by that, I mean immigrant landings of more 10.

We have nursing, medical lab technologists, pharmacists, agrologists—I never knew what agrologists were before I started this job—veterinarians, and optometrists. There's a big range of programs, and I'd be happy to share a list with this committee. Equally we have programs in the high-skilled, non-regulated occupations: human resources, IT, financial services, supply chain management, and those kinds of things. We have a very wide range of programs and professions that we've served.

How do we determine what professions we're going to serve, and is that decision linked to shortages in the labour market? In our applications process we're looking at employment outcomes but also at increased access to regulated professions.

In the regulated professions, one of our concerns is whether there is any program available to someone in that occupation that would help them prepare their dossier, which for the nurses, for example, takes 200-plus days to prepare. If the answer is no, even if the labour market demand is weak, we will fund or consider funding an initiative that at least increases someone's access to that regulatory process and his or her opportunity to compete.

When it comes to funding professions where there are no regulations—so it's a high-skilled occupation—the key criteria is evidence of employer demand. That's how we get strong employment outcomes. We insist that there be labour market research given to us.

I will say, though, that at the end of the day, we can all quote government studies and C.D. Howe Institute reports, but the best indication of employer demand is a strong set of letters from employers who say they will mentor five people, or they have six internships, or they need to hire this many people and they will agree to meet them for coffee to network and to shake their hands. That is the best indication of employer need and hunger for these programs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Ms. Gordon. Your time is up.

We'll move to Mr. McColeman.

Go ahead.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you for being here today.

I want to get your thoughts and comments on a remark that you just made in terms of looking at the specific needs of the types of employers who are there, and then gearing programs to the areas that have a need. For example, it's my impression that we do not need more teachers applying for jobs, because many of the kids who are graduating in my community—and others may be similar—will not be close to being able to get a job as a teacher for probably 10 years in Ontario.

I liked what you said about the employers driving the bridging programs, but with these programs there are certain relevant categories—and here I would point out that I've come from a trades and construction background—such as electricians, plumbers, bricklayers, and the like, where there's a huge need right across the country. I'm sure that this applies in certain medical professions as well. So when you're focusing resources on programs, do you do market analysis to say this is where we should be funnelling them because this is what's needed in the Greater Toronto Area right now?

[Suzanne Gordon]

Yes, we do that as best we can. You mentioned teachers. If you go to the Ontario College of Teachers' website, you'll see a page specially developed for internationally trained teachers, explaining to them in plain language how they can become licensed. That page exists because many years ago we did have a teacher bridging program. We don't have one now, but the access route is there. The imprint has been left, so someone can understand what they have to do if they wish to pursue that route.

You mentioned trades. I think it's fair to tell this committee that I focused on all of our successes because I'm from Ontario, and we're very pleased to be here. But we've had some failures too. You can't have funded 240 projects without some strange results. One of them is in the trades.

We have funded projects in the trades. We are trying to do that and have focused on that. We have come across a number of challenges, some of them systemic. One of the problems in the past has been that the labour market was so strong in that area that someone could get a job in the construction industry and not have to take the time to go through the certification process. You probably know of some recent changes that might affect that dynamic, so interest in participating in those programs would resurface.

You asked whether we look at labour market studies. We do our very best to do that. One of the reasons we have many nursing programs is that a while ago, Ontario said that we needed a certain number of nurses. We said we'd put special consideration on programs in nursing.

All that is to say that these programs have to be of a high quality and able to deliver good outcomes.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Do you have the capacity in your services to counsel people that there may not be a job as a teacher, but there is a job as an electrician? Perhaps retraining would go on. Do you do that type of bridging for individuals?

[Suzanne Gordon]

I will be as short as I can be here. It's a subject of debate. We have limited resources, so how do spend them when they are supposed to be bridging like to like?

We recognize that this is the issue in some professions, so we have piloted some initiatives in certain professions. We have an alternative careers program for lawyers, for example, and one that we're piloting for doctors. The idea is to take their skills and knowledge and help them move into the broader field, but not retrain them. There's a retraining program so a teacher can become an electrician, but it involves starting all over again. There are initiatives for a second career, or just going back to school and reinventing yourself.

There's an organization called Global Experience Ontario, which is an access centre for internationally trained individuals. We hope that our employment services can provide that kind of information and resource for people who have to make that very difficult decision.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

From a lot of the testimony we've heard from witnesses, there seems to be agreement that it is essential to do much of the pre-screening and pre-qualifying before someone immigrates. We need to move toward that in terms of our immigration policies, for example. Do you agree with that?

[Suzanne Gordon]

I do. There is a program now overseas that I'm sure you've heard of called CIIP, which Citizenship and Immigration Canada has funded. We're just starting to see the results. Success in that program would be seeing an individual who's a nurse arrive here and enter a bridging program within three months. That's the kind of service continuum that would be wonderful to see—and there's really a strong role for the federal government there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Ms. Gordon.

We'll move to Mr. Cuzner now.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much.

Thanks to both of you for your testimony.

On Phil's last question, Ms. Giblin, you indicated that you encourage nurses to start the application process before they come to Canada. In most instances do they begin that before coming to Canada?

[Cathy Giblin]

Yes, although over the last year we've experienced an increasing number of applicants who are making applications with Canadian addresses, and particularly Alberta addresses. We're tracking those individuals to identify what the differences are. I suspect that most of them are already landed, as opposed to seeking to apply for registration with the intent of obtaining a work visa or other entry to the country following that.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

So you're seeing an increase in that domestic base.

[Cathy Giblin]

Yes.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I want to get into the bridging issue. You had indicated there were barriers to getting access to bridging in Alberta. Does the Province of Alberta have a similar branch of its citizenship portfolio within that department? Does it have something specifically in regard to bridging to help you find bridging opportunities?

[Cathy Giblin]

Not in the coordinated fashion that Ms. Gordon has been describing in Ontario, no.

I'm sorry that I'm not familiar with what happens with other professions within Alberta, in terms of the kind of support the government offers for bridging education programs.

The bridging education that's available for nurses in Alberta is supported by the Alberta government through the Ministry of Advanced Education and Technology.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Now in Ontario, obviously, the unit is the bridging one. Is it a fairly new unit? Have you guys been up and at it for quite a while?

Are there similar units in other provinces?

[Suzanne Gordon]

Our unit has been in existence since the 1990s. It's had a different name, previously being called Access to Professions and Trades. It's moved from the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities to the Ministry of Citizenship and Immigration at least twice.

Are there other units in other provinces? There are not any specifically like ours, but the role or the inquiry into the issue would come under either their human resources or employment services, or the post-secondary education arm, of a ministry.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Does that go back to your second recommendation, where you were saying that there should be a national disseminator of bridging opportunities? Could you maybe expand a little bit on your second recommendation?

[Suzanne Gordon]

Especially with the agreement on internal trade coming, there is an awful lot of interest in doing this kind of work, and regulatory bodies across the country are engaged in it and interested in it. We do need to coordinate the best of what is available and to start to share and use it. The federal government certainly could have a role in facilitating that, but also in helping to fund the service.

You don't start in an engineering or a nurse bridge training program without a significant investment.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

In Alberta as well, Ms. Giblin, you indicated that it's a challenge to get access to bridging programs. But the competency assessments are difficult to come by as well. Who is doing that now? Is it Mount Royal College that does the bulk of that for you?

[Cathy Giblin]

Yes, currently Mount Royal does the competency assessment.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Are the fees charged assumed by the applicant?