Human Resources Committee on March 28th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

The meeting will come to order. We're now in public.

I'd like to thank you, Ms. Blain, for indulging us with the extra time we needed to do some committee business. We appreciate your doing that for us.

The practice is that you have five to seven minutes initially to present, and then you will have questions from each of the parties with respect to your presentation.

I understand you're the vice-president of research grants and scholarships with the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada. We welcome you here today.

Feel free to start your presentation.

[Isabelle Blain, Vice-President, Research Grants and Scholarships Directorate, Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me and NSERC, the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada, to talk about our efforts to fill the skills gap. We certainly welcome the opportunity to outline our progress in supplying highly qualified personnel to address labour shortages in high-demand occupations.

Developing Canadian talent in natural sciences and engineering, NSE, is a key part of our mandate. NSERC has an impressive track record in making Canada a country of discoverers and innovators. Over the past decade, there has been an 88% increase in the number of students and fellows receiving support, either directly or indirectly, from NSERC.

NSERC's $1-billion investment enables 41,000 students and experienced researchers at universities and colleges across the country to study promising ideas and innovations that will give Canada a competitive edge in the 21st century.

While these figures may seem encouraging, the fact remains that Canada does not train enough scientists or engineers. Whether at the undergraduate or Ph.D. level, Canada ranks among the lowest in the world when it comes to producing university graduates in natural sciences and engineering.

Most worrisome, we are seeing a decline in enrolment rates at the undergraduate and master's levels in our fields compared with a decade ago. Increasingly, Canada is relying on foreign graduate students to carry out the research that happens in our universities, research that will result in discovery and innovation.

We cannot, however, rely on the contribution of foreign students and researchers to bring Canada up in the rankings, not now or in the future. Why, then, do we hear about shortfalls when university enrolment is hitting an all-time high? The challenge nowadays is encouraging young people, especially more young women, to pursue studies and a career in natural sciences and engineering.

Even though boys and girls are about equally represented in K-12, at university there's a major gender divide in natural sciences and engineering. Anything we can do to steer more women into these fields will go a long way in helping to fill the gaps in high-value, high-paying occupations.

NSERC understands this and is taking action. For example, we have increased the focus of our PromoScience program on under-represented groups so that they can continue studying in math, science, and technology throughout secondary school to broaden their career opportunities.

NSERC also strengthened its policies to help students and researchers achieve a work-life balance. These policies help women in science and engineering realize their full potential.

NSERC also monitors the peer review process to ensure that decision making is not gender-biased.

In addition to highlighting the importance of attracting more students to the natural sciences and engineering field, NSERC is developing new methods to help those seeking a career in the field hone their skills and prepare for the workforce.

We were told during consultations across Canada that while our graduates have outstanding knowledge and abilities, they often lack the soft or professional skills, so we now provide greater opportunities to students to work in interdisciplinary teams and hone their communications, project management, and business skills through on-the-job training.

For instance, budget 2009 and budget 2010 provided additional funding to the industrial research and development internship program, the IRDI program. It funds internships that match students and post-doctoral fellows with industry needs.

We've also launched CREATE, the collaborative research and training experience program. These grants enable qualified trainees to acquire professional skills. In doing so, they facilitate the transition of new researchers from trainees to productive employees in the workforce.

Of course, I am not claiming that these initiatives alone are going to solve the problem. There is still a long way to go before Canada catches up to the 20 or so higher-ranking countries that produce more science and engineering graduates, proportionally speaking.

Our progress over the past decade should give us all hope that Canada can and will produce the skilled workforce it needs to keep our country at the cutting edge of innovation.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to questions from the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

All right.

Go ahead, Ms. Crowder.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Ms. Blain, for coming before the committee.

There are a couple of points in your presentation that I think are very interesting. First, you said that in some of these fields, enrolment rates are declining. Do you have any sense of why that is?

[Isabelle Blain]

That's an easy question for a difficult answer. First of all, there's a proportion, so it can be that other fields are growing faster than natural science and engineering. The numbers are going up, but proportional to the total number of students enrolled, there are fewer who choose biology, chemistry, physics, and engineering relative to social sciences, humanities, and health. We don't normally use the term “hard sciences”, because that's not the reality, but there are some kids who, through high school, opt out of mathematics, chemistry, and physics. Therefore, at that early age, they limit their options. When they get to university, they don't have the prerequisites to go into the natural sciences and engineering.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

That leads me to my second question. A number of years ago, I did a project on barriers to getting students involved in high-tech careers. One of the things we discovered was that colleges and universities may have been doing some recruiting work at the high school level, but where the barriers actually started was in the K-12 system. Are you doing work in the K-12 system?

What we found is that if they don't have the foundational skills in the sciences and maths in the K-8 system, they are not going to make those choices in high school. Are you doing work at the levels leading up to grade 8?

[Isabelle Blain]

We do that through organizations we provide grants to. Our program called PromoScience supports a number of organizations across the country that reach out to 10- or 12-year-old boys and girls. The program seeks to inspire and maintain their interest.

I know that Bonnie Schmidt was here. She is the president and founder of one of those organizations. She is probably a lot more qualified than I am to speak to that issue. Yes, we have a program that aims to support those who reach out to kids, whether it's NSERC itself or other organizations that are expert in reaching out to K-12 students.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Can we touch on women's recruitment? It may be that women get their degrees, but the retention rate of women in some of these fields is not particularly spectacular.

I'm going to use lawyers as an example. Many women get off the partner track. They opt not to stay in. What is your experience with retention of women? They are already seriously under-represented. What is your experience of retention of women once they get into the field?

[Isabelle Blain]

There is what is referred to as the “leaky pipeline”. There are more women getting bachelor's degrees than there are getting master's degrees. We then lose some at the transition from master's to doctorate. We lose some more from doctorate to post-doctorate, and more still from post-doctorate to university professors. The ratio of women in the natural sciences and engineering faculties is about 22% women to men.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Sorry, did you say that 22% of the faculty are women or that the ratio is 22 to 1?

[Isabelle Blain]

The percentage is about 22%. It has been pretty stable—18%, 20%, 22% for almost 20 years. It has moved up, but very slowly.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

It sounds like this place.

[Isabelle Blain]

Yes.

Not having many role models at the faculty level is one of the factors that is not necessarily encouraging more young women to pursue careers later on. Yes, we have a leaky pipeline. We lose them from grade 12 to university, and then at all of the points throughout.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Have I still got time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

You're at 4:55.

[Jean Crowder, NDP, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Okay.

Briefly, is there any additional funding to encourage women to stay through the graduate work, funding that is specifically targeted for women?

[Isabelle Blain]

At NSERC, no, there isn't. We have very small programs. We have a program that funds five women. It's called the chairs for women in science and engineering. We have one of those chairs in each region: Atlantic, Quebec, Ontario, the Prairies, and Vancouver.

Their role is very much outreach. It's also doing research into how the situation can be turned around, understanding what the issues are for women in science and engineering, and also acting as role models and as multipliers of role models throughout. It's a very small program relative to the $1 billion that NSERC has.

We try to do more through policy because we're not the employers of university professors. We have to work in partnership with universities so that they have policies in place that are more encouraging to the recruitment and retention of women.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much for that.

We'll move to Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, witness, for being here.

I'm looking at your slides here. I have a couple of questions to start off with from there. They're not numbered, but it's on page three, the top one. It says that 60% of the NSERC-funded students and fellows work in an R and D environment and are already earning more than $70,000.

Part of the study that we're looking at is how industry and the skill gaps are actually taking place. How many of these actually end up in industries somehow, or supporting industry and our economy?

[Isabelle Blain]

I don't have that number off the top of my head, but it's more than half. Fewer than half of the Ph.D. graduates go on to careers in an academic setting. That leaves all of the other sectors with more than half of the graduates.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

They're going to industry.

[Isabelle Blain]

They're going to either industry or NGOs. It could be provincial or public service, but—

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

There's no breakdown of the industry portion?

[Isabelle Blain]

I don't know that offhand.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay.

Clearly the feed into some of these higher-level degrees is determined by the number of people who go into the first degree production. We're lagging way behind some of our competitors, competitors being places like Taiwan, which has way more people going into their first degrees for a population of about the same size as ours, approximately.

Do you have any comments on why that is?