Human Resources Committee on Feb. 5th, 2013

[Jim Diotte]

Yes, I believe so. At SaskPower we've started

a chair with the University of Saskatchewan and the University of Regina to help promote their power engineering programs.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Those are university studies, but when it comes to skilled trades, we could start much earlier.

[Jim Diotte]

Yes, you're right.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

If I understand correctly, the shortage of technicians is the critical problem. However, for the time being, in most provinces, there still isn't close collaboration with the institutions.

[Mathew Wilson]

I can't answer on behalf of any one company, but I'll tell you about a couple of examples.

The local businesses and local industry right across the country are very interested in working with the schools, whether it's at the high school level or any other level of education. Wherever they can, they do work with them, but there is a real disconnect, either as a result of provincial education bodies or regional education bodies, or as a result of the universities and colleges trying to set themselves a global benchmark instead of trying to help the local industries.

We know in some cases, for example, that the groups of companies have had to come together to create their own colleges or technical institutions to be able to train the next generation of students. I know it's happening in British Columbia in the forestry industry, and in northern Alberta with the oil and gas industry, and I'm sure there are others across the country as well.

There are some good examples as well where colleges and universities, but specifically colleges, are working with the local high schools as well as the industry to try to create that integrated approach, to mentor kids through it. But they're so few and far between, the challenges are so great, and the complaints are greater, unfortunately, than the exceptions where there are some good programs going on.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

So there is room for improvement.

When we travelled out west, in Fort McMurray for example, people from the social sector rather than the industrial sector told us that the problem was not that young people were not interested in working where there are mining activities, but that the reason was that there is a lack of housing cooperatives and no basic public transit system.

Even if someone is offered a job that pays $30 an hour and requires little training, working in that location will be very costly for the person. Since the living costs are very high, even having a good salary does not make the job profitable. These people from the social sector seemed to believe that this has become a problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Monsieur Lapointe.

The time is up, but we'll let each of you respond to that question if you wish.

Go ahead.

[Jim Diotte]

This problem isn't unique to Fort McMurray. The same thing is happening in southern Saskatchewan. Indeed, in Estevan, there are not a lot of places for young people to live. This is a sizable problem.

[Mathew Wilson]

It's the same thing if you look at some of the mine development operations in Newfoundland and Labrador. There's exactly the same problem. This isn't isolated, certainly, to Alberta or the Fort McMurray area; it's a problem right across the country.

The other problem with that, which we're certainly seeing in Alberta, is that you get high school students who are coming out at 17 and 18 years of age with the promise of a job earning $80,000 or $90,000 or more a year. What ends up happening is they're unqualified, really, for much beyond general labour in the oil sands. They have very limited skills. Over a number of years it looks really good, and they're making all this money. They go from living in their parents' basement to making $100,000 a year. But there's really a limited growth potential for them there. They don't have the education or the background to get into a lot of the apprenticeship programs and a lot of the skilled trades. There's that side of the problem as well. Certainly I've seen much more of that problem in Alberta, and to some degree in Saskatchewan, than in other places in the country, but there's a definite problem.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that exchange.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

It's a really important issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

If it's really important—

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I didn't mean to imply that there is a specific problem in Fort McMurray. Witnesses have talked to us about this subject, but it is not a problem unique to Fort McMurray.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

All right.

Just for the record, the committee did visit Estevan, my home town, and I can verify from personal knowledge and experience that what you say is absolutely right when it comes to a housing shortage.

We'll move to Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I sense Mr. Lapointe's uneasiness in talking about Fort McMurray and his party's views on the oil sands, but we won't go there.

Mr. Wilson, you talked about the elimination of any kind of trades curriculum, at least in Ontario. We're old enough to have grown up and had the trades in grade 7 and such. Those were eliminated for whatever reason.

Is your organization doing what it can to lobby the provincial government to reinstitute trades training at an early age in elementary school? Are you doing that?

[Mathew Wilson]

We're working, obviously, with the provincial government to increase the awareness of the absolute necessity of reinstituting these things in Ontario, but again, this isn't just an Ontario problem; it's right across the country.

We're also trying to work with them to introduce programs like the ones we're running in Manitoba and in Quebec, where the technical trades training can take place inside the industrial complex of the province itself, but it has to be done in conjunction with the education system or it doesn't work.

The third thing we're doing, actually, is working with local groups and companies. We're starting in the London area, where there are some high schools that are trying to reintroduce the shop programs and technical trades training. We're trying to get our members to give direct support to the local high schools so that they can provide some of the technology and some of the machining and equipment and things like that which the students need, and then to also bring the students right in.

We are trying to do that, but it's a very small piece of what the real problem is. We're working on it. We can obviously do more, but it is something we're working on for sure in Ontario.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

For a moment place yourself in a legislator's position at the federal level. What can the federal government do when provinces set up barriers, not only to curriculum alternatives that have come full circle, I would suggest? We are sitting here as federal legislators. We could perhaps incent industry to do their part, but our hands are tied. I see it as a larger cultural shift that's happened over time, perhaps in a generation, which has created the pickle we're in now and which has to be shifted back.

What do you think the federal government could do to change that cultural orientation that has happened back to perhaps where it should be? As we heard with Germany, it's been in their culture since the 1600s. Being in the trades is actually looked upon as a badge of honour. They don't say, “Stay away from the trades, son, because it's better to get a liberal arts degree or an undergraduate degree”, which is, I think, the culture of my generation. We did that to our kids. Perhaps we still do it, and we need to shift it back. What can we do?

[Mathew Wilson]

I know it is a difficult thing, obviously. You're limited by the Constitution and a whole bunch of other political realities, but there are a couple of things you could do.

First, HRSDC plays a significant role in terms of labour market issues across Canada and informing people about what's going on. There is a role at a bureaucratic level to have a better understanding of labour market realities, educating the different provinces about what's going on, and trying to be a coordinator of what really is happening in the real world.

A lot of times there's a disconnect between industry and government as well as, and we talked about it before, between industry and the education system. There is a role for the federal government to play in terms of coordination.

There's another thing that helps an awful lot. When the federal government takes a leadership role in something, even if it's outside its specific jurisdiction, it can have a lot of influence on public opinion as well as provincial political opinion in terms of where things are going.

I've heard the Prime Minister speak on skills issues quite a bit. It was a big preoccupation of his when we met with him before. I know it is an issue for the government as a whole and not just one party. It is something in which there is a strong role for the government to play in terms of promoting the skills, and the needs, and the economic realities of not backfilling where the gap is today, in the same way that Germany has.

There are obviously ways, and you mentioned incentivizing industry. You can do some of that stuff, but there is more of a moral or a public role that the federal government could play in terms of coordinating and promoting these things, as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you, Mr. McColeman. Your time is up.

Mr. Diotte, do you wish to comment? You're okay. All right.

We'll move to Madame Boutin-Sweet.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. Wilson, you spoke about a disconnect. You also mentioned earlier that industry may not have enough information about apprenticeship programs.

The programs also have to be adapted to continually changing needs. However, information is necessary to do so. Unfortunately, more than one source of information has been lost recently. The sectoral councils offered a personalized service but, sadly, basic funding will be terminated next month.

There is also the Survey of Labour and Income Dynamics, or SLID, which was part of Statistics Canada's long-form census. That has also disappeared. This study indicated long-term income fluctuations. This study tracked people over 20 or so years.

Where can you go now to get information to find out, for example, which programs meet workers' needs? I'm not just talking about the industry side, but also the workers.

[Mathew Wilson]

That's a tough one. There probably are things that can be done through groups like CME and other associations that represent a broad base of industry, surveying our members and things like that. I'm not sure what other sources of information StatCan and HRSDC and other places collect information from, what they have, what's available in terms of analysis of what maybe has changed over the last couple of years and what will be changing.

I know that 35 or 37 sector groups looked at different aspects of it. I don't want to criticize any one group or promote what any one group did. Let's just say there were some groups that did some really good things and provided a lot of really useful information on different sectors, but out of the 35, there were very few that provided information that industry used. It was not done as effectively as it probably should have been. The information that was available at a lot of those different sector groups wasn't really up to what industry needs. or obviously what the government required.

I still think, from my understanding anyway, that at HRSDC and from what's going on in the sector groups, there's still going to be opportunity for specific industry studies. It's just not going to be providing the base funding for those groups to operate and exist just to exist.

Again, I don't want to get into what's coming or what's going. I'm not really sure about some of the details. But it probably had some room for improvement, even it remained in the old system. Maybe that's the....

I don't know if you know, Jim. You're avoiding all this.

[Marjolaine Boutin-Sweet, NDP, Hochelaga, QC]

My next question is for you, Mr. Diotte.

You talked about programs and focusing on aboriginal groups. As we know, it is the fastest growing population group. They also have their own culture. Those who worked were often Mohawks. They worked in high-rise buildings. The lineworker trade might be a good idea.

I would like to know how you approach training aboriginal workers. Is the training adapted to their culture? Is it offered in aboriginal villages or in major cities?

[Jim Diotte]

In our case, it depends where we're looking for workers. We have a hydroelectric power plant in Sandy Bay in the north of Saskatchewan, bordering with Manitoba. An aboriginal community lives there. We visited a secondary school to offer four young people the opportunity to work in different positions at our hydroelectric power plant for one year. The goal was to help them decide what they wanted to do at the end of their studies. In our opinion, we need more than just hydro line technicians. It also depends in what community we're looking for workers.

You asked me if our programs are adapted to their culture. Not really. However, those who work in Island Falls all come from the same place and the same community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that exchange. Your time is up.

Mr. Shory, you don't need to use all your time; we need to quit a little early. You're next on the list, so go ahead. I'm not sure if Mr. Cuzner will have some questions.

Go ahead, Mr. Shory, and then we'll conclude with Mr. Cuzner.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.

Earlier we were hearing from German witnesses, where with a population of approximately 82 million, youth unemployment is 8% or so. If we compare that with Canada, with a population of 34 million, I read a TD Economics article recently that said our youth unemployment is above 14%. It said that the youth unemployment in Canada will cost the Canadian economy $23 billion. I agree with their logic when they talk about why it is $23 billion. The economic impact is not just related to lost wages, but it also includes the lost productivity by those individuals. The crime rate definitely increases as well. The potential is there, and we can use all the wealth.

We have been hearing from all kinds of witnesses. One thing is that number one, our government has initiated some programs for employers and also for the youth apprentices to give them some incentive to join the program. Where is the gap? It seems there are not as many programs available for the youth on the one hand, by the private sector, I would say. On the other hand, the youth drop out of a lot of the trade apprenticeships they join. What is the reason?